4.3.2 Seems to change Muse trumpet to Basic piano on its own.

• Jun 16, 2024 - 05:36

I know, I know. It isn't possible. I've noticed a growing number of posts about odd things in the latest version.

I have a score I have worked on since 3.6.2 and every version of MU4. Never any problem. Now I've opened this score 3 times and at least twice the trumpet has loaded as Basic piano. I have never had the trumpet as anything other than ...trumpet.
It occurs to me that MuseScore reverts to Basic when it can't find the desired instrument.
Just an observation of what is happening.


"I have a score I have worked on since 3.6.2 and every version of MU4. Never any problem. Now I've opened this score 3 times and at least twice the trumpet has loaded as Basic piano. I have never had the trumpet as anything other than ...trumpet."
Please attach this score.

I haven't tried it today, yet.
As I say, Not really a problem. Just an odd thing that it happening. I didn't post the score at first because I just wanted to put this out there. It might never happen again. Just odd.

Attachment Size
Bloom_24.mscz 130.37 KB

In reply to by bobjp

It's true that if you've removed Muse Brass or it otherwise can't be found for whatever reason, or something went wrong with the last update, MuseScore Studio will substitute something else. So whether the installation is missing or just messed up somehow, best to go to Muse Hub and reinstall Muse Brass.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

It seems to happen with scores I haven't opened in 4.3.2 before. I deleted Muse Brass and reinstalled. Still happens. Most of what I am working on is ported over from other software. most of it years ago. No version of MuseScore 4 has had this problem. So I found a score that originated in MU4 but predates 4.2.3. It did the same thing. Only the trumpet loaded as Basic.
I don't mind really. Just surprised. I did a reset a few months ago.

In reply to by bobjp

Are there any special steps to reproduce this? I took the score you uploaded and downloaded it to my system, opened it, and looked in the mixer. The trumpet from Muse Brass was selected for the playback sound for the trumpet, just as I’d expect. if you follow those exact same steps (including downloading a fresh copy of the score), does it still fail for you? if so, can you show a picture of your mixer with that dropdown expanded?

In reply to by bobjp

This score was last saved in 4.1.1, and it is set to use piano, so yes, any version of MuseScore opening this file will use piano. It says so right in the file itself:

    <Part id="7">
      <Staff id="7">
        <StaffType group="pitched">
      <trackName>Trumpet in C</trackName>
      <Instrument id="grand-piano">
        <longName>Trumpet in C</longName>
        <shortName>C Tpt.</shortName>
        <trackName>Trumpet in C</trackName>

If you're saying that at one point in the past it was using a sound other than piano, and that somehow that got changed to piano, that may well be, but if so, it happened in 4.1.1 (or earlier). So presumably whatever bug that was got fixed already, which is why you only see this in older files.

One thing I do recall is that some early versions of MU4 would not recognize automatically trumpet in C (as opposed to Bb) as being something it should use Muse Sounds for. Ypu'd have to choose Muse Sounds manually. That bug also was fixed some time ago, but some older scores might be using MS Basic for trumpet in C for that reason. Still, even those older versions should have chosen the trumpet sound and not piano. So that doesn't fully explain this, but anyhow, again, all that was fixed some time ago, so only older scores might need fixing up now.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

It isn't a big deal. Just a little odd. I have never used any sound but Muse trumpet in these scores. And whatever version I was using at the time always loaded Muse trumpet. And the first score I posted was worked on in 4.2.1 and loaded Muse trumpet. The trumpet in C label hasn't changed since I first opened the score in 3.6.2.
Anyway, it's just something I have to remember to check when I open a score. Thanks.

In reply to by bobjp

All I can say is, the contents of the file explicitly call for piano. I can’t say how it got that way, but I can say 4.3.2 is simply loading the sound actually called for in the score. So if there is a bug here, it was in the version of the MuseScore created that created the file, not in 4.3.2.

In reply to by bobjp

The score got last saved with MuseScore 4.1.1 and originally stems from an mxl import.
Opening it in 4.1.1 shows that indeed the tumpet uses MS Basic rather than Muse Sounds and that it doesn't sound at all. Staff properties show the instrument to be Grand Piano, just the long and short instrument names are for trumpet

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Indeed that score stems from an mxl import. From 2022. I opened it in 3.6.2 and promptly saved it as mscz. And I have worked on it in every version of MU4. It has always opened properly. I have never saved it with a trumpet part as piano. It was never a piano part that I changed the names of. It is possible that sometime in the 2 years I've been working on this, that I experimented with other fonts. But not in the last five months, and those fonts are still on my computer. One score the other day loaded the basic trumpet sound. Which I know I didn't save.
I can't reproduce it. Like I say, I just have to remember to check the mixer when I open something.

In reply to by bobjp

Again, that score absolutely postively demand piano be used. If that exact copy of the file ever played with any other sound in any other version, it is a bug that is now fixed. The file says right there in black and white, "please play this track using a piano sound" - I posted the exact lines where it says this. And as you are seeing, 4.2.1 continues to play it that way, just as it would have months ago, and just as 4.3.2 does - all exactly as they must, bec ause the file demands a piano sound. Playing that specific otherwise otherwise would be a bug - the file as it is calls for piano, period, end of story.

Memory can play tricks on us, so no worries that the reality of the situation doesn't match your memory, but again the facts of the situation speak for themselves: 4.2.1 plays this with a piano sound exactly as it must. And the file was last saved in 4.1.1 - with other trumpet part set as piano. it's right there in the file itself for anyone to read. So whatever went wrong, went wrong many months ago.

In reply to by bobjp

This one is also set interally to use piano - probably due to an incorrectly-written MusicXML file - but does indeed play back using a Muse Bass trumpet sound. That's because it has a mixer override applied in the audiosettings.json file within the archive. The other file did not. It does, however, seem to be attempting to access sound from a third-party soundfont, a sound called "trumpet-SOLO-sustain". Depending on whether that sound happens to be available on your system or not, you can get different results. I believe it is true that 4.3.2 will fall back to piano whereas previous versions might play nothing if it can't find the soundfont.

Bottom line, though: these scores are messed up. The trumpets are pianos masquerading as trumpets. Check out the instrument range in staff/part properties too, for instance. But you'll also find other things might not work correctly because as far as MuseScore knows, this is a piano, not a trumpet. Presumably this is all the result of a bad MusicXML (or a bug in a previous version of MuseScore used to do the import). You should fix the staff to be a "real" trumpet, by going to the Instruments panel and replacing the instrument (and when you go to do so, you'll see "Keybaord" preselected, further indication that this is indeed a piano, not a trumpet).

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Bottom line. Yes I have experimented with other trumpets. I have also experimented with other instrument fonts. Only the trumpet has left some kind of residue. Messed up mxl? That was two years ago. These files have been saved in mscz format countless dozens of times. If there was a problem, why didn't 4.3.2 correct it? If this was a bug fixed "long ago", why is it still showing up.

In reply to by bobjp

If the messed up MusicXML says that’s a piano, then no matter how many years ago you imported it, and no matter how many times you save the file from within MuseScore, it will remain a piano. There is no info in the file to indicate it is anything other than a piano. Thus, there is no way for MuseScore to recognize there is any sort of problem to correct. The file says it’s a piano, so a piano is what you get.

Now, if the original MusicXML file was not in fact messed up - if it properly declared the instrument to be a trumpet, but the version of MuseScore you were using two years messed up and turned it into a piano then - then that would indeed have been a bug in that two-year-old version of MuseScore. And if you can show that the original MusicXML was not in fact messed up in that way, and can show that 4.3.2 will make the same mistake of converting it to a piano when importing that original MusicXML file, then of course it will have been shown that the bug has not in fact been fixed.

Right now, though, without that original MusicXML file to examine, it’s impossible to say if there file was messed up or if the bug of turning a perfectly good trumpet into a piano two years has been fixed meanwhile. Again, we’d need to see the original MusicXML file you imported to make that determination for sure.

What we can say without the slightest doubt is that the MSCZ file you posted specifies a piano, not a trumpet, as the instrument. Any version of MuseScore that opens that particular MSCZ file and shows it as anything other than a piano (e.g., when examining it in staff/part properties) was defective. If such a defect existed in any previous version, though, i can unequivocally state that that bug is now fixed. There file says that instrument is a piano, and 4.3.2 correctly shows it as such.

In reply to by bobjp

No, as I said, that one does play back with a trumpet sound, and shows Muse Sounds Trumpet in the the Mixer, despite the fact that it is still a piano when you look at the staff properties. Again, that's because that instrument was explicitly set in the Mixer to use the Muse Sounds Trumpet despite being a piano. The other file was attempting to load a sound called trumpet-SOLO-sustain from a soundfont. Results during playback will then depend on whether your system happens to supply a soundfont with that sound. It's not one of the default sounds, so it isn't clear where it is meant to come from.

So once again, the underlying problem is that the instrument is a piano. You can play soundfont and mixer games all you like in an effort to trick the system into using a trumpet sound, but the instrument is still a piano, as reported by staff/part properties. And thus if the games fail (eg, if the soundfont is missing), MuseScore is going to fall back on the default sound for the instrument, which is piano. If you want to avoid undefined results, change the instrument to a trumpet.

Without seeing the original MusicXMl file this was imported from, we still can't really speculate on what happened to cause this instrument to be imported as piano. Either the original MusicXML file was buggy, or the version of MuseScore that was used to perform the import was buggy. Without the MusicXML file, we'll never know. But again, what we do know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that the file you uploaded contains a piano that is trying to masquerade as a trumpet, and results will be undefined once "the masquerade is over".

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Here is the xml. It lists no instruments in the id line only some two or three digit code. I exported a new version with a dolet plugin. It is almost the same.
It is interesting to me that every time I work on this score in 4.3.2 It will load the proper Muse instruments.

Why is that? The file says the trumpet should be a piano. And yet it loads a trumpet. The file also says a piano should be loaded for the trombone. It did the very first time I opened the xml., but never since.

And yes, I can change the instrument in Properties. I know xml is not the greatest way to do this.

Attachment Size
bloom_6.mxl 38.67 KB

In reply to by bobjp

The MusicXML file is missing the instrument-sound tag that are supposed to be used to identify which sounds should be used. When this info is missing, MuseScore may attempt to guess based on the name information that is present, but this is less reliable because there are many different ways someone could choose to represent the same instrument (eg, Tenor Sax, Sax 3, Tenor Saxophone, Tenor, Ten. Sax., etc). In this case, I think the name "Trumpet in B (2)" and might explain why MuseScore can't associate it correctly with trumpet. If resave the file with that changed to just "Trumpet", it works better, but still not perfectly, because it can't figure out the transposition.

Anyhow, when I import that MusicXML file into 4.3.2, staff/part properties reports Grand Piano, the mixer reports MS Basic, and I get the piano sound. There is nothing inherently wrong with MusicXML as a format, but this particular MusicXML file is just poorly constructed and thus produces undefined results. The way to get guaranteed correct results is to have a correct file. This isn't one, and that's why results are all over the place.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

It is the file that Sibelius produced. And actually instrument id is less important to me than is the actual notation. Which seems to be fine. Also, the instrument in the xml is labeled trumpet in Bb. Or Bb trumpet. Or Trumpet in B. Which is also means Bb as this is a European program. And 4.3.2 seems to read violins (plural) as solo. And totally gave up on the rest of the strings.
Yes, but what about Bloom_25? Why does that load trumpet instead of piano? Sure there are problems with this xml. But there also seem to be problems with how 4.3.2 reads them. But I know you will absolutely, positively disagree. The more I look at it, the more problems with instrument id that I see. All of which I don't really care about that much. I've already spent more time on this topic than it's worth. I care more about the notation.

In reply to by bobjp

If you don't care about the playback and only the notation, great, all should be well as is.

If you care about the playback, fix the instruments. They are wrong, and results will be undefined. That means that depending on what sounds you happen to have installed, and what version of MuseScore you load into, you can get different results at different times. Which explains why you see see one result on your system with your soundfonts, and I see different results for the same score on my system with my soundfonts. And someone else may see different results still. If that's acceptable to you, then leave it as it is.

\But if you want to get predictable results, fix the score. The problem is not with MuseScore Studio 4.3.2. The problem is with the score. It has obvious problems I have explained in great detail, and if you want predictable results, those problems need to be fixed. I have also explained how to fix the problems in the score

Since at this point I've now basically just repeated myself several times, I take it you have no new questions, so I will bow out of this thread. you are welcome to fix the problems in your score or not depending on whether it these problems and there ramifications concern you or not. They would very much concern me if I were you, but we all get to choose what we're bothered by. If you're not bothered by a score with well-documented problems that lead to undefined playback results, great! Again, since I've provided all the assistance I am capable of here, I will now bow out.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Marc, you've had to repeat yourself because you are not listening to what I am saying. There are no problems in the "score". There are problems in the "file" MU4 uses to create the score. On what planet did you read that I wasn't interested in fixing problems in the file. Thank you for pointing out one way to do that.
The problem I see is that there are four or five other improper Instrument id's for which MU4 loads the instrument I want in every version of MU4. But not the trumpet. Yes, it says "piano", but so do some of the others all of which MU4 loads the last saved instrument. And all the labels for that channel say "Trumpet".
Yes the "file" will get fixed. It's just odd that this has been going on so long. If it were all the problem instruments doing this. I would have brought it up much earlier. But, no, only the trumpet. And then not in every version of MU4.
And when I said "notation" I meant notation for playback. Notation has always been correct. And when I change the trumpet sound in the mixer (which I only have to do once for this version of MU4), playback is correct.
Seems to me that MU4 reading of an admittedly questionable file is consistent for incorrectly loading the trombone font when the id says piano. As well as some other instruments. This seems like a problem to me.

But easier to blame a Messed Up File.

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