MU4 add new tempo sign

• Jun 19, 2023 - 23:14

Chromebook/Linux i5 8gig

Please add new sign 2/4 at bar #9. Count measures after #9, first. Try making 4/8 or 5/8 in bar #9

Attachment Size
Untitled score.mscz 16.37 KB


In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Guess my problem is it is measures being added not beats. I just gained an extra measure I did not want or in many cases did not need. Just adds more steps to add one measure when you then need to delete an unwanted measure. I would have put two if that is the number of measures I wanted to add. The box in 'add' does ask for measures you want to add, does it not?

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Yes that is true. But unless you are planning to rebar the rest of your score, you are going to add the meter sign to a following bar, anyway. So notes or not 'following beats' makes no sense for simply changing the meter for 'x' number of measures. Possibly only one. And then you may have an extra meas that you now need to delete for no real reason. And in a large orchestral score that is alot of extra time and effort scrolling! If you happen to be adding a small number of measures into a large score you now have extra measures not wanted or worse, depending on the meter change you do not have what you thought you added. If you are copy/pasting you just gained a Big mess. I really think we deal in measures not beats when writing music.

In reply to by R. L. F.

I'm not fully undersyanding - precise steps to reproduce the problem would be useful - but in general, if you wish to change time signature for just a single passage, best to select that passage first, then click the desired new time signature. This will automatically add the new time signature at the beginning and restore the old one after. Or, if you feel like taking the slower route, you could first re-add the original time signature at the end of the passage, then add the change at the beginning. Either way, no rebarring will occur in the passage you want to keep.

If that's not what you mean, please give precise steps to reproduce the problem you are alluding to so we can understand and assist better.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

As usual you are helping me to somewhat understand my concerns. Somewhat. I realized later in worrying about sending the attached score I forgot other things. I am in MU4. From your other comment about append I suddenly realized you were talking MU3 as there is no append in MU4, add, meas.(insert)

Now you have my attachment. I was doing multiple things with it so I am hoping this makes sense with what you have. You have a 5/8 meas followed by a 3/4 meas. I want '3' meas more of 5/8 so I can copy/paste from elsewhere in the score. Can you do that with what you said above...easily and simply? I cannot. I will leave this for now and think further about what you said above. Your suggestion, I think is touching on both of these posts I have made. And I need time to clear my head and rethink the problems. Thanks as always!

In reply to by R. L. F.

MU3 did not have a command to append a measure after a selection - only to append at the very end of the score. MU4 does have an append after selection command, but as far as I know you can only reach it from the Add menu or the Properties panel, not the "+" menu on the toolbar.

In reply to by R. L. F.

Right now, the way to insert measures before a time signature would be the insert them a full measure before, not immediately before. Then cut & paste the music from that last bar before the change to where it belongs. Then fill your empty measures as desired. Not ideal, but that's how to do it, and still no rebarring involved.

In reply to by R. L. F.

Number of staves shouldn't affect this at all - you can move that one measure across 2 staves as easily as across 2 - just move them all at once. Click the measure in the top staff, Shift+click in bottom staff to select the whole column, then Ctrl+X to cut, then select the destination measure in the top staff, Ctrl+V to paste. Takes all of five seconds regardless of the number of staves. So not ideal, but not terrible either, considering this is a fairly rare thing in practice.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

For some of us all of these issues are really not that rare. Some of the issue is the scrolling up and down in a large score. Yes, if I had a much larger screen that would not be necessary. But this is all because of not having the correct option.

I will answer here from your other post. I had to go check things as I said. From a user's point of view which way the meas is added before or after.... just do it. Pick one, flip a coin. We all just want it back. Yes I said back!
I checked MU3, insert happens after the highlighted meas and before the following measure. In my example, the 5/8 highlight would insert before the 3/4 measure. Please bring this Back as one of those options. Just my choice... the insert before happens before the barline not inside the highlighted meas. A thought.

Guess I will let the adding by beats and not meas slide. I am sure it is a coding issue. But instead of add 'meas' it should be add 'beats'. :)
Thanks as always, Marc.

In reply to by R. L. F.

Hmm, you're often inserting new measures in a new time signature after already adding time signature changes? In general, that's quite rare, but if you compose that way often, then indeed, the extra five seconds could start to add up. So hopefully a consensus is reached soon, or someone just makes an executive decision (which seems more likely). I've opened on issue on GitHub to request a change here - see

But I don't understand what you mean about MU3 at all. The behavior is, again, no different than MU4. I just tested in both cases, if you select the 3/4 measure and insert a measure before, the newly inserted measure is in 3/4. If you select the 5/8 and insert a measure before, it's in 5/8. This is indeticial between MU3 and MU4. There is no difference whatsoever in the behavior of the command to insert a measure before a selected measure. The only difference is that MU4 also provides the append after selection command.

As for multiple staves, scrolling to the bottom of a 20 staff system is a single flick of the wrist with two finger swipe, or a single press of PgDn (use the special Search/Everything button plus Down to access PgDn on a Chromebook).

As for the beats vs measures distinction, I'm not understanding it. Measures have beats, and beats add up to measures. Six of one, half dozen of the other. But in any case, there is no coding issue prevent the behavior from changing - just an executive decision needs to be made about how it should work.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

This probably is covering both of my posts. Adding meas and changing meters.

Using my attachment, the same 5/8-3/4 meas. I want to add 4 meas after the 5/8 meas. The 3/4 stays the same and the 4 added meas are changing to 9/8 so I can copy/paste four meas from elsewhere in the score. Does what you said above do this and not be forced to make other corrections? Or, do I have to start counting beats to know how many measures I should be adding to get my 4. Then checking to make sure I figured correctly before I paste? Whew! Verses just being able to add 4 measures and then changing those 4 to the new meter. Whatever it might be?

From what you have said I am sure you all have discussed this. But what is here is not an effective or efficient solution for a world class notation program. Some of the comments I have received imply somewhat the same thought. I certainly feel the 'add measures' , in MU4, feature has an error since both inserts give the same result. Having to count beats for adding measures also does not seem the right thing, though what you said above seems a reasonable work-around still with potential changes necessary.

This has just been tossing out thoughts for making things easier and quicker while working.

In reply to by R. L. F.

Again, I totally agree, it would be better to have a direct way to insert measures right before a time signature change. I'm not claiming this is a resolution. I'm just explaining the best known workaround, and also what would need to happen (more consensus) before a proper solution can be developed.

So to answer your first question, to add four measures within the 5/8 section, select that measure, then insert four measures before it. Yes, I know you want them after, but as you've discovered, that won't do what you want. Inserting before will. Then all you need to do is cut and paste fo the contents of the original measure back to the beginning of that passage.

Now, that's to get four more measures of 5/8 like you initially said above. Then as what appears to be a second question, you also asked about having four measures of 9/8. Since there isn't a 9/8 there at all, you'd need to add one. I'm not sure if you want that in addition to the four extra bars of 5/8 or instead of that. But either way, since there is no existing 9/8 there now, you'll have to decide how you want the existing measures converted. I'd consider adding just one measure wherever you want these 9/8 bars to appear, then changing that one bar to 9/8. At that point you'll either have one bar or two of 9/8, depending on if the bar you started with was longer or shorter. Then you can add the two or three remaining bars.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I just picked the 9/8 for the example. I was just wanting to add 4 bars and then a new meter. As I said in my other post, in MU3 it is much easier to do. I can add the 4 meas after the highlight then change the meter. Still unfortunately, have to count beats to know if 4 meas is enough or too many. Closer to ideal, but still leaving something to be desired.

As always you have given me some ideas I had not thought about . Will try them. At least till a ,hopeful, change to MU4. Thanks as always.

In reply to by R. L. F.

Again, there is no difference whatsoever that I can see in how MU3 and MU4 work here. Literally none. if you are seeing a specific MU3 score where the exact sequence of steps produces different results when performed in MU3 vs MU4, please post that MU3 scores and the precise steps to reproduce the problem, so we can investigate. When you do so, please list the steps clearly, one by one, numbered on separate lines, like this:

1) select measure 4
2) Add / Measures / Insert before selection... (aka "Insert measures..." in MU3)
3) Enter 4 into the dialog and press OK

Result: (tell us what you see happen different in MU3 vs MU4()

For this, obviously, we need an MU3 score to use as the example, since the score you originally attached can't be loaded into MU3 for comparison.

Again, for me, when I perform the same steps in MU3 and MU4, I get exactly the same results. If you are not, you must be doing different than I am - or doing different steps in MU3 vs MU4. That's we would need you to post your exact steps in order to understand and assist better.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Maybe we are not talking about the same things! I am adding measures between two different metered measures.
Sorry, no score. Open MU3, pick two blank meas. Make one 2/4 the next 3/4. Highlight the first, go to add -measures menu dropdowns select insert (either one or many), click and see the blank measure(s) is between the two measures. Just where some/many of us want it/them.
Now try the same thing in MU4. Of course you know where it/they will be. After the 3/4 sign. Not the same as MU3.
So this is why I say 'bring it back!' If you are not able to do this, I guess I finally get to say "there must be something wrong with your system." :)
Hope this may clear up what I have been trying to say all along. Sorry if I have not been clear enough, before.

In reply to by R. L. F.

Perhaps we're not talking about the samje thing indeed. We won't know until you post the sample score and precise numbered instructions as I've described. The general description you just gave sounds like we're talking about the same thing and it absolutely works exactly the same between MU3 and MU4, but there is probably some detail you are failing to describe. Which is why I asked for precise numbered instructions - to so we can be absolutely sure we are following the exact same steps, steps from the same score.

So again, when you're ready to describe the problem more precisely, I stand ready to assist.

In reply to by R. L. F.

"I really think we deal in measures not beats when writing music"

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you. The concept of a "measure" is meaningless unless you define its time signature and thus the total duration of the measure. The time signature also affects the rhythm, which is an essential component of the music.

In reply to by DanielR

The concept of a "measure" is meaningless unless you define its time signature and thus the total duration of the measure.

I agree. Beats and durations are what measures are made from. The time signature is what organizes a stream of beats/durations into measures.

The time signature also affects the rhythm, which is an essential component of the music.

Yes, the predictability and rhythmic pattern of a fixed, stable time signature is what allows for dancing to music. (That's why a pickup measure will require a complementary measure for the repeat, lest the dancers stumble.)

In reply to by Jm6stringer

I agree with what you are saying. My reason for bringing this up was the changing of numbers of measures that follow when you change the meter sign. Are you really worried about the number of beats in the following measures when you change meter, or just the number of measure you might need if you are adding 6 measures into a larger movement? I am fitting meas not beats. Thanks for the thoughts.

In reply to by DanielR

OK. I think we agree, sort of, but may be approaching it slightly differently. When you come up with a melody, theme whatever called, do you say" now there's my 32 beats, so how many measures? Shall I make it 8, 16 maybe, how about 4? Wait 6 meas with 2 extra beats." Or on and on, I think you get my point. We are thinking of a meter then putting down notes.(yes the meter may change as we proceed) I know I am not counting beats as I compose.

My point in bring this up was that in changing the meter sign of one measure in a score is suddenly changing the number of following measures.(in some cases) Subtracting for some meters and adding for others. All depending on the meter you just had. If you are adding 'x' number of measures in a larger score you might find you have more measures to now delete than what added or worse, if you are copy/pasting a section of score and suddenly do not have the number you just added....major mess!

When we add measures into a score and then change the meter, no, I do not think we are considering the beats in the measures to follow. Thanks for the comment.

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