Opening more than one score launches several instances of the app
Once a single score has been opened, press Cmd-O to open a new one and ... a new instance of MuseScore 4 will be created, instead of opening the score as a tab of the existing window.
This is not a new window of the same app, rather a new app launch.
I now have 4 scores open, and 4 MuseScore icons in the Dock.
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Comments
This is a known issue, and will hopefully be fixed in a future version.
In reply to This is a known issue, and… by ThePython10110
Not sure that's the plan, for now this is by design
In reply to Not sure that's the plan,… by Jojo-Schmitz
I guess what I meant by "It will hopefully be fixed" is "I hope it will be fixed."
@jeetee said, "It is currently mandatory to integrate the new playback engine. There is some work ongoing to try and consolidate it into a single instance possibility again, but no definitive outcome yet."
I have the same issue, and while it is innocuous, it's irritating. I don't understand the comment that it is "by design." No other OS X app behaves this way, so I see it as an error. We (our tech lab) will return to MuseScore 3 until it is fixed.
In reply to I have the same issue, and… by tbdkktj2cc
Indeed, macOS is pretty limited in its support for multiple instances unfortunately. i do hope someone reports the issue to them, because it would be far easier and more effective for them to fix that.
But for the record, there is a reason why MuseScor enow allows scores to have their own windows - this also allows them to have their own sounds rather than all being forced to use the same soundfonts. Which in turns makes VST instruments and Msue Sounds possible. Also MU4 has far better engraving and other advantages. You'll have to decide if it's really worth giving up all the major improvements in MU4 over a macOS limitation that is merely "irritating", but of course, it is your right.
In reply to Indeed, macOS is pretty… by Marc Sabatella
I agree with the above poster: no other macOS app launches a separate instance of the program for every document it opens. I am afraid you are mistaken here, it is not a problem with macOS, yet a precise design choice from the MuseScore team. There are two main ways: every document opens in a separate window (of the same app instance) or in a tab within the same window (if you have that enabled in System Settings). MuseScore way is a 3rd, custom way. Again, this is not a macOS limitation. If you think otherwise, why doesn't the MuseScore team report it directly to Apple? As a company, they are for sure more in touch with them than an ordinary user can ever be.
I understand that your way allows different sounds, but I wonder how many users are taking advantage of that while being unable to open two scores in tabs, which would help productivity much more in my opinion.
On the "far better engraving", I respect your opinion, but while you certainly needs to talk highly about your product, an objective look returns a different result.
In reply to I agree with the above… by Michele Galvagno
As explained previously, the separate instances are the only solution anyone has found to an important problem. Perhaps there are other solutions that macOS can handle better, but it remains the case that all other OS's handle this well, so it is a macOS limitation as well, and macOS could certainly be improved in this regard, and it is worth suggesting to Apple. And yes, it's possible that MuseScore could also be improved if someone more clever than any of the people who have worked on this so far are able to come up with a solution that solves the original problem without doing something macODS can't handle.
As for how many people take advantage of the ability to have different sounds for different scores, that number is hard to count of course, but it's really to imagine how one could effectively use VST instruments and Muse Sounds otherwise.
If you only have two scores though, I'm not understanding the productivity issue even on macOS. Cmd+Tab switches back and forth very simply, does it not? It's really only the case where you have lots of windows open where macOS's failure to combine the icons into one with a list of open documents like a other OS's do starts to be more problematic.
In reply to As explained previously, the… by Marc Sabatella
I'm sorry Marc, but I cannot agree with you.
When you open multiple documents on macOS, you can right-click on the app's icon and access all open documents. If you have multiple app instances, then each instance has its list of open documents. Sibelius doesn't allow to have more than one app instance (launching a second one silently fails). Dorico allows it, as long as they are different builds. Adobe apps do the same. The way MuseScore works is unique, for the good or the bad, and while I don't like it, it's not my place here to judge what seems to have been a thoughtful choice.
MuseScore 3 and earlier didn't have this "issue", so this must have changed in v4.
In my case it was a whole set of parts that because 20 apps ... a truly poor UX. Also, you need to open them one by one, multiple-file-opening is not supported (another unique feature!).
In reply to I'm sorry Marc, but I cannot… by Michele Galvagno
Yes, it has been changed with Mu4, and for a reason, as Marc said:
But for the record, there is a reason why MuseScore now allows scores to have their own windows - this also allows them to have their own sounds rather than all being forced to use the same soundfonts. Which in turns makes VST instruments and Muse Sounds possible.
In reply to I'm sorry Marc, but I cannot… by Michele Galvagno
You aren’t disagreeing with me, you are illustrating my point nicely: macOS does not handle multiple instance well like other systems do. And that is a reason the team is actively investigating workarounds to that unfortunate limitation.
In reply to You aren’t disagreeing with… by Marc Sabatella
Maybe it would be possible to add a toggle option for macOS users? That way everyone could choose how they want it. However, I can imagine it may well just be unnecessary clutter for most people (like me) who don't really care and get along with both options very well.
Another thought would be to give the option of opening a new tab in the same window or opening a new instance of MuseScore. I think that would work best.
In reply to I'm sorry Marc, but I cannot… by Michele Galvagno
Two observations.
My Sibelius 7.5 opens each score in a separate instance of the program. Just like MU4. And I can have several open.
I, for one, do not have a single instance of any scores using the same instrumentation or sounds. Each is unique.
In reply to I have the same issue, and… by tbdkktj2cc
This Issue is indeed very annoying. If "they" have made this behavior intentionally, Musecore developers are not listening to the users. I also must return to Version 3.
In reply to This Issue is indeed very… by eViolinity
The developers are absolutely listening. But tabs are not an easy thing to do. MuseScore 4 changed so many things, and from what I understand, there are technical issues with having multiple instances of MuseScore in the same process when using the improved playback system.
Use MS3 if you want, but please don't insult the developers of this amazing software just because they didn't add the feature you wanted.
In reply to The developers are… by ThePython10110
I can't detect any insult
In reply to I can't detect any insult by Jojo-Schmitz
I guess I may have exaggerated a bit. Just the part about how the devs aren't listening.
In reply to I guess I may have… by ThePython10110
Not fixing things that many users annoy a lot in more 3 years can very well be seen as 'not listening '
In reply to The developers are… by ThePython10110
Sorry, I didn't want to insult anybody!
Musescore is a great piece of software. Thanks to all developers!
In reply to Sorry, I didn't want to… by eViolinity
No worries, you didn't
Contraversial statement - while this issue is annoying, at least for me when it comes to closing documents, it does make it easier to switch through the respective documents with CMD+Tab on a Mac.
In reply to Contraversial statement -… by MrUsidore
It's unclear to me why this is being framed as an issue only on macs, when the multiple windows thing happens on windows as well. Or perhaps I misunderstand.
For the record, I too wish this behaviour had not been introduced; I much prefer tabs to multiple windows of the same app.
In reply to It's unclear to me why this… by sunup
On Windows there is no inherent advantage to using tabs over multiple instances, because Windows handles multiple instances very well - showing just one task bar icon with multiple documents, flipping between then with Alt+Tab easily, etc. Windows was designed from the beginning to support multiple windows well - which is indeed why it’s called Windows and not Tabs :-). It really does work very well and efficiently.
But macOS doesn’t handle this nearly so well. It handles multiples Windows only if they all belong to a single “instance” of the program. Which is not the case for MuseScore. And that means you end up with not just one dock icon, but one for each open score. And worse, the icons don’t it clear which icon goes with which score, nor do you see this info when flipping between open windows via the keyboard shortcut.
So on Windows the experience of using multiple windows is really quite excellent even if subjectively some people happen to prefer using tabs for whatever reason. But in macOS the multiple instances causes the experience to be objectively worse. A single instance with multiple windows would work OK, but that would defeat the purpose of why the change was introduced - it would mean going back to the bad old days of all open scores being forced to use the same sounds. Or else waiting for sounds to reload every time you switched between open scores. Neither would be acceptable in a world with VST instruments and Muse Sounds.
In reply to On Windows there is no… by Marc Sabatella
I see. Thank you for the explanation. I will learn to cope with multiple windows.
What I can't cope with is clicking File/Edit/View etc and having the drop-down menu options appear on the other monitor instead of next to where I clicked. Hope that gets fixed soon.
In reply to On Windows there is no… by Marc Sabatella
"On Windows there is no inherent advantage to using tabs over multiple instances"
Not sure about that :
"Palettes save automatically as part of your workspace. Do be careful not to have multiple instances of MuseScore open when doing customizations like this, or they can overwrite each other."
In reply to "On Windows there is no… by frfancha
I would say that’s a quirk of the specific implementation in MuseScore, not an inherent advantage of one over the other. Other settings like those in the Preferences dialog get synced automatically - so changes in one window immediately take effect in others. This just hasn’t been implemented (yet) for palette customizations.
In reply to I would say that’s a quirk… by Marc Sabatella
Something that is not a quirk and an issue on all OS:
In a single window app you can see 2 scores side by side next to the palettes and make adjustments to both of them using the palettes.
Yes you can do the same by putting 2 windows side by side but then the size required on screen is 2x palettes, 2x menus, 2x toolbars,...
Problem is of course worst if you are working on 3 or 4 scores together.
Yes you can show and hide palettes but to keep one one space on screen for palettes you need to hide on the score you are leaving and show on the score you're now changing.
And in fact it doesn't even do what's needed : each window would be 1/3 of the screen for example, by showing palettes on score that you will now modify (which can be to add a simple accent that you have spotted as missing) you are in fact reducing screen size available for the very score needing to be correctly seen!!
And all these problems to allow different MuseSound by score that you don't need at all while refining the notation.
MuseScore should allow multi tab mode, potentially with playback turned off for scores using another MuseSound than the first opened one
In reply to Something that is not a… by frfancha
Or of course be implemented as a modern application and make tab/window question independent of the process question.
Yes each score needs to be in its own process for MuseSound, that should not impact the tab/window question.
In chrome, each tab is a process.
And can be dragged and dropped freely to become a window or a tab of another chrome window.
In reply to Something that is not a… by frfancha
What you describe has nothing to do with tabs versus windows or about multiple instances versus multiple windows - it’s just about a split screen view. In principle that is possible either way. Note that tabs in themselves don’t allow split screen - that was a whole separate feature grafted onto MuseScore long after the initial tab interface was designed.
In reply to What you describe has… by Marc Sabatella
It has a lot to do with multi windows.
To edit several (let's say between 2 and 4) scores at the same time, in a single window you only need space on screen once for your edit tools: palettes, button bar,...
In the multi windows case you need space on screen for these edit tools as many times as you have scores being actively worked on together.
In reply to It has a lot to do with… by frfancha
As I said, there is no reason side-by-side view couldn’t be implemented in a way without needing tabs. And no reason those multiple windows couldn’t share toolbars and toolbars.
In reply to As I said, there is no… by Marc Sabatella
If I undertand correctly, you are saying : while that isn't the case at all right now, MuseScore implementation could be smart enough to develop an interface where one window would contain the toolbars and palettes that could be used by all other MuseScore windows, avoiding wasting lot of screen space (and potentially solving the issue of last customisation wins in palette).
Ok, that's true in theory, but in practice it hasn't happened, so today the problem of wasting screen space is present. Therefore it is false to say that today the window implementation has no negative effect for MS-Windows users.
And I would say, if MuseScore development becomes advanced enough to share toolbars and palettes, surely it can become advanced enough to have the same kind of interface as Chrome has: each tab is its own process, as required for independent MuseSound by score, but the user is free to drag and drop any time to switch between tab and window appearance.
In reply to If I undertand correctly,… by frfancha
Yes, I am saying that the current lack of a feature to show multiple scores side by side within a single window is not an inherently limitation of multiple windows, but is just a matter of that feature not having been re-implemented yet. In fact, for the first decade or so of MuseScore’s existence, there was no feature feature with the old tabbed interface either. And if we were having this discussion back then, people would be - and were - saying that multiple windows were inherently superior because they allowed you to see two or more scores at once while tabs most clearly didn’t.
So again, I’m not saying that being able to work with multiple scores isn’t valuable., I’m just saying that imagining that reimplementing a tabbed interface will magically also just happen to reimplement a side-by-side view is just completely misguided. A new side-by-side view - or other means of viewing multiple scores in a space a space-efficient manner - would need to be diesgned and implement for the new UI regardless of whether the primary score view happens to involve tabs or multiple windows. ZThe just have almost nothing do with each other.
And FWIW, work is progression to alter the way this is done internally, in part to address the limitations of macOS with respect to multiple instances, but also hopefully it will more easily sallow additional capabilities on all platforms.
I'm on Windows so I'm not familiar with MacOS specifics although I used a Mac when it was put on the market around 1984 or 1985. However, due to many limitations for professional use within space engineering I abandoned Mac. That's too my background.
It's not that there are no tabs in MuseScore. If I open one of my pieces, with the score and the corresponding parts, I can have 35 or more tabs. I'm not sure how this will work if you open another score which may also have 30 our more tabs (score and parts) so for me it's actually better to have two instances, on two screens of course.
The sound/VST problematic has apparently resulted in the current design implementation but that's of no interest for me as I'm hardly using playback and if yes, only the basic MS sound.
In reply to I'm on Windows so I'm not… by TomStrand
It’s still the case that tabs are used for the parts - just not for multiple scores. So you’d have two windows, each with 30 or so tabs. And yes, unlike MU3, it would need possible to place them on separate monitors - although I’ve never tried this and can’t say how well it works in practice currently.
In reply to It’s still the case that… by Marc Sabatella
I'm on a Mac. I can open a score in Finale, and then open another score in Finale, without launching another iteration of the app.
On a single monitor. No muss, no fuss. I can't understand why MS4 can't do the same.
In reply to I'm on a Mac. I can open a… by mikey12045
4.3.2 on macOS and stubbornly insisting on this has caused a new irritation. Opening a score, because it’s a new instance, leads the OS to ask if I want MS Studio to share data with other apps. Every! Time!
In reply to 4.3.2 on macOS and… by luntastonemason
That's a fairly unique & odd macOS "feature", but you can give MuseScore Studio permission to access the external data via System Settings > Privacy and Security > Full Disk Access.
In reply to That's a fairly unique & odd… by Marc Sabatella
Man, if only you could account for this in the software itself… yes, a work around works, but it’s annoying.
It is becoming increasingly clear that either devs or public-facing people with MS just don’t like macOS or are ignorant of it. If this is not the right impression, by all means, correct it. But you have complained negatively about what you perceive as limitations or as negative features of macOS, when it’s not my problem, and when Apple is unlikely to fix them. MS Studio isn’t going to move the needle on handling multiple instances.
This is not the place for being wildly pro or anti-macOS (Windows, Linux…), even if you are a macOS user yourself.
In reply to Man, if only you could… by luntastonemason
Solutions to the access permission issue are being investigated. It seems the actual issue on the Muse Hub side, the way they "sandbox" their apps. So they have been made aware of this and hopefully will come up with a solution.
And solutions to the other aspects of the multiple instance issues unique to macOS are also being investigated. it's not that developers don't like or don't understand macOS - it's that the complications are such that solutions are difficult even for people who do know macOS well. Many people have devoted a considerable amount of effort to solving them but while there are promising bits of progression, no real answers, yet. But as always. if any other macOS experts want to get involved in the process, they are welcome to - such is the beauty of open source software!
In reply to That's a fairly unique & odd… by Marc Sabatella
No non-macOS app on my system will have "Full Disk Access" unless I specifically choose so.
Sibelius, Dorico, Finale work perfectly well without that option.
In reply to No non-macOS app on my… by Michele Galvagno
That's because they are not trying to access resources from Muse Sounds. You are of welcome to simply check the option allow every time you launch MuseScore if you don't wish to grant it the same rights all previous versions of macOS and all other operating do by default. But as I explained, the issue is actually with Muse Hub, so hopefully they will alter how they do their sandboxing in the future.
In reply to That's because they are not… by Marc Sabatella
Other softwares access VST without this permission needed.
What Apple, or Microsoft, or anyone does with their operative system is irrelevant. If the software house wants their software there they need to comply enough to make the experience the best possible for the user. No one else is important: just the user and their experience.
In reply to Other softwares access VST… by Michele Galvagno
Muse Sounds is not a VST. Any VST that other software access without permission, MuseScore Studio can access as well. Again, the problem is unique to Muse Sounds and appears to be a problem at their end that will hopefully be fixed soon - because yes, of course everyone agrees the user experience is important.
In reply to Other softwares access VST… by Michele Galvagno
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is not really impressed with Marc's responses. and I'm doubly unimpressed; the devs should never have made this change in the first place, which does indeed show that there's a lack of consideration with respect to the OS.
Marc doesn't have to like it, but it's been this way for well over a year. 4.0 shouldn't have launched this way, and they should have been a tad humbler in taking feedback. Then we get this problem with Muse Sounds… and virtually no acknowledgement that it's a pain. "Oh, just change the settings…" Sigh!
In reply to I'm glad that I'm not the… by luntastonemason
I'm sorry you don't appreciate the time I volunteer here on the forums over the years, helping users and explaining how things work and why they work that way. I do my best, but we're not all perfect. You are of course welcome to pick up the slack and start volunteering your own time for this purpose instead if you feel you can do better :-)
For the record, though, I explained why the change was made. So far no one has found a solution as to how to gain the advantages of multiple instances without the drawbacks imposed by the limitations in macOS. But since you are sayiong it shouldn't have been released this way, I assume you know about system programming and have and an alternative solution in mind. You are also welcome to contribute your expertise developing code (as I have also spent countless hours doing over the years) to implement your proposed solution!
Not sure what you mean about problems with Muse Sounds; better to start a new thread about that. or maybe you mean the fact that macOS also imposes a new restriction regarding applications accessing each others' resources? The MuseScore developers cannot fix macOS, but I do think the Muse Hub developers have found a solution that will allow it to work, and I suspect it will be part of Muse Hub 2.0. I think you might be able to help test that by visiting musehub.com.