Musescore 4 Multiple Tabs
When attempting to open multiple scores in MS4, instead of adding another tab to the preexisting window, a new window opens with each additional score opened. When editing or working on multiple scores at once, this becomes messy. Is this intentional, or is this a bug? If it is intentional, how do I revert to a system like MS3 where I can have multiple tabs with different scores open in a single window and easily switch between them?
Comments
It is intentional and by design
In reply to It is intentional and by… by Jojo-Schmitz
Forgive me, but why? I do not see the advantage.
It seems a step back to me, and close to a showstopper for me, however attractive much of MS4 is.
Any chance of making it optional?
In reply to Forgive me, but why? I do… by user2442
It is currently mandatory to integrate the new playback engine. There is some work ongoing to try and consolidate it into a single instance possibility again, but no definitive outcome yet.
In reply to It is currently mandatory to… by jeetee
I hope the new playback engine can be re-architected to allow for multi-threaded use (vs. multi-process use) -- multi-threading is usually far lighter weight than multi-process and then the tabbed approach would be a no-brainer since each tab could be controlled from a separate thread.
Now, I suppose you could architect the whole thing as a large UI shell with tabs to represent open projects, but the open projects themselves are run as headless processes without a "main" window that would show up at the window manager level but rather child windows that can be obtained and displayed by that top level UI and constrained to be within the working "project" area. That way the playback engine can remain architected to run single-threaded within a process.
Anyway, all capable DAWs already allow tabbed projects (I use Reaper) so given that MuseScore is incrementally approaching DAW capabilities, this is certainly something that should be worked on.
In reply to I hope the new playback… by thomaswb
As far as I know, the current playback system is multithreaded - this was implemented about 3/4 of the way through the beta period. But, that's multiple threads per score. Each score is still in a separate process, each with several threads.
I'm sure separate threads dor each score within a process would be possible, but then you'd be back to the original problem of maintaining the separate audio states for each score.
In reply to As far as I know, the… by Marc Sabatella
It's certainly not a show-stopper for me, just less convenient to not have all open scores accessible from a tabbed interface.
Maintaining separate audio states for each score should be relatively straightforward (not saying it's trivial though, depending on how modularized the code is for access to the global audio state) using a shared block heap memory holding score-level state that the threads for a given score all access. Given that the playback engine is currently multi-threaded, there must be some synchronization in place to access the shared process global memory for state so replacing with synchronized access to a shared block of heap memory might not be out of reach.
In reply to It is intentional and by… by Jojo-Schmitz
To me these are the three most serious issues because they are not bugs they are by design.
Anyway, good luck. I appreciate this software tremendously. I have been using Musescore daily for over seven years? I was one of the first users.
I have been trying to get my overseas friends to adopt it, but Avid/Sibelius is so cemented into the media world that it is going to be a hard sell.
But anyway, I hope a meeting is held and a redesign of 1, 2 and 3 happens.
In reply to It is intentional and by… by Jojo-Schmitz
I would very much appreciate if it was optional, or even better, if it was like an internet browser, where you could have different windows and tabs. Many times, I am working on 4-5 scores at a time, and I have to click each one to find out the one that I want, because there is no way of telling other than looking at each page.
In reply to It is intentional and by… by Jojo-Schmitz
bad intention. I am sorry.
what I like about mu4 is that it already lets us see single score in the full score by hiding others.
but when coupled with intentions and designs of opening another instance is no progress.
In reply to It is intentional and by… by Jojo-Schmitz
This is stupid.
In reply to It is intentional and by… by Jojo-Schmitz
Could you please return the tabbs. It's become quite messy while working on multple songs.
I don't know which platform the OP is using, but on Mac, opening another document opens another instance of MuseScore. I have not seen anything like that in many, many years of using a Mac.
Sorry for all the hard work that went in 4, but I'm sticking to 3 for now.
In reply to I don't know which platform… by gr3p3
Then it is even more of a problem than I thought. Not only a new window, but even a new instance.
This means that I am not going to use it as long as this will be the case.
MuseScore 4 has the potential to be absolutely stunning. I really hope this will be repaired.
In reply to Indeed. It is even worse… by user2442
The investigation into changing the architecture around the engine is ongoing to enable multi-window but single-instance in the future: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/12647
In reply to The investigation into… by jeetee
Thanks for the link. I read through it and realize now that the awareness of the problem within the team is already deeper than I knew. I also understand that quite some code might need to be rewritten and that would take time. I am happy that 4.x is named as a potential release point in the discussion.
I will now stop complaining...
In reply to Indeed. It is even worse… by user2442
I noticed this same problem immediately on opening MS4 and like jeroen2442, I won't be coming back to 4 until this issue is fixed.
In reply to I don't know which platform… by gr3p3
Same here, have to agree, this is a deal breaker for me, a pity as I would imagine a lot of work went into this.
In reply to I don't know which platform… by gr3p3
Same here. Multiple tabs is a must
In reply to Same here. Multiple tabs is… by tonisq
See #338910: Tabs behaviour change - Opening two scores on the same window
It looks like at the top where the tabs were in muse 3 is similar to muse 4, i really hope this gets updated, i would rather not have multiple windows open when I'm comparing score.
This is prohibitive for me as well. I'm staying on version 3.0. Regretfully because the new version seemed promising. Hoping that this problem will be fixed in a future update...
I am in a chorus and I practice with a few open scores, switching back and forth between songs, changing tempo and vocal mix as I learn my part in each. That is impossible to manage with all those instances, all those mixers, all those play panels
In reply to I am in a chorus and I… by Tim McKenna
Depending on your operating system, you can use virtual desktops to manage those i.e. place an instance in each desktop.
Hope this gets fixed!
Showstopper for me too. Will continue with MS3.x until this is fixed.
In reply to Showstopper for me too. Will… by mitdahand
It is interesting to me that this is such a terrible thing. Different? Sure. There are other notation programs that work this way. As does Word.
In reply to It is interesting to me that… by bobjp
Not with a new instance! That is really going too far.
Not to mention Tim McKenna's use case, which is exactly mine also. I don't know of a Word use case like that.
In reply to Not with a new instance!… by user2442
Word does not tab documents. It opens them in different windows. I guess I'm not understanding Tim's problem.
In reply to Word does not tab documents… by bobjp
Those multiple windows still use the same instance of Word loaded into memory. However, the downside of this is that: if one window crashes word then all the windows crash since they are sharing the single instance.
This can happen with Excel VBA so it can be preferable to deliberately choose to run multiple instances of the program to give some crash protection. I guess that the same is possible with Word VBA.
Launching an entirely separate instance of an application is very uncommon on the macOS: I'd go so far as to say that it breaks the design philosophy of the programme. Don't like!
In reply to Launching an entirely… by tedthetrumpet
I admit to not knowing much about Mac. What design philosophy is broken?
In reply to I admit to not knowing much… by bobjp
The design philosophy that forces you to have all documents open in a single instance rather than the equally convenient multiple instances I guess. ;-) A chacun son goût.
The real problem with Musescore in multiple instances is that they don't inherit settings. Set up a workspace how you like it and create a new score. The new instance uses the settings from before you set up your new workspace. You have to close Musescore, re-open it and only then can you clone new instances with your new workspace settings
In reply to I admit to not knowing much… by bobjp
This is not meant to be a sarky comment, but… if you haven't used a mac then you won't know how deeply wrong it feels to have two copies of the same app open at the same time!
Also, to clarify: this is not about having more than one window open, that's fine!
Just adding my voice to this.
If there is an option to disable the sound engine completely just to be able to have different scores within one window, I could deal with that.
On Mac, Musescore opens another application named identically--so cmd-tabbing between these Musescore apps doesn't even let you know which score you're tabbing to.
It does seem quite clunky and counter-intuitive.
In reply to Just adding my voice to this… by Greggles135
Not snarky at all. But really? With all the problems V4 has, This is the main problem?
In reply to Not snarky at all. But… by bobjp
Good point. I'm going to shut up now: reminding myself that this is excellent free software that I should be grateful for!
In reply to Not snarky at all. But… by bobjp
Everyone uses Musescore differently hey. For me, yes, this is the biggest issue. Opening new instances of an application just for a new score seems wrong and clunky.
I don't use the musescore audio at all.
In reply to Just adding my voice to this… by Greggles135
Totally agree. Also with Tim's use case - even toggle back and forth between songs during a concert to get a last minute melody boost. Wouldn't work with the current v4 setup. So back to v3 and hoping for this to be sorted out...
See #338910: Tabs behaviour change - Opening two scores on the same window
Switching between multiple windows when using a single app could be annoying. I am switching back to MS3 until the multiple-tab feature comes back in MS4.
In reply to Switching between multiple… by MC314159
On Windows just press keyboard shortcut Alt+Tab to switch between windows. Would that really be annoying?
In reply to On Windows just press… by yonah_ag
Alt-Tab cycles through all applications. Unf in Windows there is no ALT/CMD+` which is both on Linux and Mac
In reply to Alt-Tab cycles through all… by Jacek Gajek
If you create a virtual desktop on Windows 10 then Alt-Tab is constrained to the active virtual desktop. So, put MS instances onto the same virtual desktop and Alt-Tab will switch between scores. With many apps the taskbar will give an indication of the app's contents, e.g. filename, (score name).
I think for the people evaluating user feedback it would be helpful if everyone who has mentioned their dislike of the missing tabs here would also explicitly state why they think tabs are important for their use of MuseScore (if they haven't already done that.
In reply to I think for the people… by RobFog
I would be happy with a windows menu with each score in its own window rather than a tab. Having multiple instances of the app with no idea which is which is a real headache.
In reply to I think for the people… by RobFog
After experimenting with it for a while, I have to say I like the new system with one score per window, and tabs for the different parts. (At first I thought tabs had disappeared altogether, but they are actually being put to a different use.)
What I would find very difficult to live with is multiple instances of the app existing if I am editing multiple scores. In any case on the Mac. But it seems the team is aware of that and is working on a solution. If that is implemented my voice actually goes to keeping windows-for-scores and tabs-for-parts.
In reply to After experimenting with it… by user2442
Running multiple instances of an app can have advantages. I typically run multiple instances of Excel whenever there is any VBA involved as this gives some measure of crash protection. If you use a single instance (loading multiple files) then a crash kills all the Excel windows and you lose all changes to all loaded files.
So maybe, with MS4 being so new, it is more likely to crash in its earlier releases than later on and, therefore, multiple instances could prove to be a score saver.
In reply to Running multiple instances… by yonah_ag
Maybe on Windows, but on the Mac multiple instances are very inconvenient. You get multiple identical icons in your system tray with no way to know which icon hides which score. Same when trying to switch between instances with Cmd-Tab (Mac version of Alt-Tab) - no way of telling to which score you are switching. That gets very annoying very quickly.
As to crash protection: you can set autosave in increments of 1 minute, starting with 1. So not too much of a problem, I would say.
In reply to Maybe on Windows, but on the… by user2442
One of my pet hates is autosave! It's a waste of disk i/o and my mechanical hard disk is on the way out. Autosave wreaks of dodgy software. If software is stable then I much prefer to save manually.
There are clearly different preferences amongst users on this issue. Maybe it depends on how many scores you tend to have open. I only have 2 at most, so I would easily know which I am switching to but I can see that this could be annoying if you have a lot of scores open.
I think that it's good to see MS4 launched now, as it has been eagerly anticipated, and leave a resolution to a future update, rather than delay the release for this feature.
In reply to One of my pet hates is… by yonah_ag
Autosave is something to do in addition to save manually. No way does manual saving prevent the need for disaster recovery autosave.
In reply to Autosave is something to do… by Marc Sabatella
I'd rather not give my aging hard disk that extra hammering. Once I'm confident that software doesn't crash then I don't use autosave. I know that the current trend is to save after every keypress, (e.g. Google docs), but this just seems really paranoid to my old fashioned mindset.
For disaster recovery I use a backup system.
In reply to I'd rather not give my aging… by yonah_ag
No version of MuseScore has ever been immune to crashes. And the autosave interval is only three minutes by default and can be customized to be less. If your hard drive is so unreliable that you don’t trust it to save every three minutes, it has far worse problems than can prevented by disabling autosave!
In reply to No version of MuseScore has… by Marc Sabatella
My PC has trouble booting but otherwise seems OK. There's nothing on it that I can't easily recover so I'm only vaguely looking for a new one. Maybe I can pick one up in the January sales - but I still won't use autosave. I have only had a single crash with MS3.6.2 so it's very reliable for me. I'll wait for MS4 to bed in before installing it.
Aquedelta, Dec 16 2022 : "how do I revert to a system like MS3 where I can have multiple tabs with different scores open in a single window and easily switch between them?"
Treat your desktop as a single window and use keyboard shortcut (Atl+Tab on Windows) to switch between instances of MS4 easily.
Unfortunately this is a show-stopper for me too... Thankfully I store my files on a versioned cloud otherwise I would loose my scores. (MS 4 and cannot save files in a MS 3 compatible format).
In reply to Unfortunately this is a show… by Jacek Gajek
Hmm, I'm somehow still not understand how pressing Ctrl+Tab is more better than pressing Alt+Tab, or clicking a tab within the MuseScore is better than clicking the taskbar icon. It's functionalllu the same, better even in that Alt+Tab nicely switches back and forth between scores. Can someone please explain more clearly what they feel they are actually losing, as opposed to simply needing to press/clicking a slightly different button than before?
In reply to Hmm, I'm somehow still not… by Marc Sabatella
There is a reason why browsers started to use tabs. Alt+tab cycles between all apps. So it's not reliable as it can take you to a web browser or PDF viewer.
Also on Windows you don't have a visual feedback because all instances of app are hidden under the same icon so you don't really know which scores are currently open.
It's not only about UX, it's about loosing a lot of functionality, for example you cannot customize palette if you have multiple instances of app. You change a palette in one score but cannot use it in another. Same with everything.
It's not only about functionality, it's also performance. In MS3 opening a score is instant. MS4 it takes several seconds. Imagine that I have 30 single-page scores which I want quickly review before a gig (a real-world use case). In MS3 they can be opened in a few seconds (select 15 files in Windows Explorer and press Enter, repeat) and I can cycle through all of them with ctrl+tab. In MS4 it would take ages and took 9 GB of RAM with no way to linearly cycle through scores.
In reply to There is a reason why… by Jacek Gajek
FWIW, I do understand and sympathize with these special concerns. But so far no one has found a way to solve the more fundamental problem of needing different playback profiles for each score with these other desires. It's a difficult technical problem that so far none of the core team nor any of the community members who contribute to the development have devised a satisfactory solution for. For most cases, Alt+Tab and selecting from a menu work very well.
In reply to FWIW, I do understand and… by Marc Sabatella
If you use Window 10 virtual desktops then:
• Pressing Alt-Tab is constrained to the current virtual desktop
- so put your instances all on the same virtual desktop and name that desktop "Musescore" (see pic)
• Separate instances can be seen in the Taskbar with the start of the score name, (visual feedback 1)
• Pressing Windows-Tab shows all your instances in a mini-view, (visual feedback 2)
This doesn't solve memory usage problems etc. but can help with easy switching
In reply to FWIW, I do understand and… by Marc Sabatella
Well I can cite Elon Musk "5 steps of design" here
1. Make the requirements less dumb.
2. Delete the part or process.
Why do you insist on keeping the "needing different playback profiles for each score" requirement? Seems to be a rare edge case for me and if somebody needs that then they can launch a separate instance of app anyway.
Seeing how many features we loose due to this requirement (basically all customization of workspace) it really needs to be groomed again.
In reply to Well I can cite Elon Musk "5… by Jacek Gajek
That's a good question, but I think you probably underestimate the value of having different instruments loaded for different scores. After all, you might have a piano score in one window, an orchestra in another, choral music in another, etc. But indeed, it would be great to find a solution,. So far, people have tried but not succeeded. if you're saying you have expertise in this area and are volunteering your service to help in the spirit of open source cooperation, great, I'm sure the team would welcome your contributions!
In reply to That's a good question, but… by Marc Sabatella
I have no idea if I can help, but I do have experience with software design and architecture. Also coding, but not in C++ I'm afraid. Anyway, I would like to see if I can contribute. How to proceed?
In reply to I have no idea if I can help… by user2442
I'd start by checking out Contribute / Development in the menu above, familiarizing yourself with the code, and participating in the discussion son the Development and/or Design channels on Discord (links should be found in the documentation in the above menu)
In reply to I'd start by checking out… by Marc Sabatella
(Deleted)
In reply to That's a good question, but… by Marc Sabatella
If I have two piano scores then they are loaded twice? I think everything should be loaded just once and reused in all tabs, just like in MS3. You manage a background "Muse" process anyway so why not put it there?
In reply to If I have two piano scores… by Jacek Gajek
Currently, yes, if you have two scores that happen to use the same sounds, those sounds are loaded for each score. The background process you mention is just a small installer, it's not actually part of MuseScore itself nor is it meant to be (it also works to install other programs from the Muse Group).
As mentioned previously, if you have technical expertise that youbeleive would allow you to solve the problems that have thus far eluded the professional software developers who bui,t this system, Ithen I am sure they woould welcome your input! However, this forum is not a good place to contact the developers - instead see Contribute / Development in the menu above. I recommend starting with the Discord channel and explain your design proposal there.
In reply to Currently, yes, if you have… by Marc Sabatella
I want to warn against using this “small program”. It is called MuseHub and very easy to use, but it installs a service with unlimited acces on your computer that runs permanently and which could potentially compromise your system and expose it to external parties.
Instead, you can use the direct “Download without MuseHub” link on the MuseScore download page.
In reply to I want to warn against using… by jimfoster
Except that you can't get Muse Sounds without it. Please provide proof of your claim. Some kind of printout from a security program. Other than you don't trust it.
In reply to Except that you can't get… by bobjp
@bobjp:
Thank you for asking. The subject deserves a impartial, fact based discussion. Sorry if this is lengthy, but I feel I need the space to not seem "just claiming" but actually to explain why I think the way I do.
I invite everbody to either refute or support my position with factual arguments. I believe in free discussion, and I would be very happy to be proven wrong. I will not be afraid to withdraw it and apologize, should that happen.
You ask for a security report on MuseHub. Nothing would be better than a successful security audit by a reputable third party. Such an audit does not exist as far as I know, and to execute it one would ideally need source code access to the app, which is impossible without cooperation from MuseHub, since it is closed source.
But observations on its behaviour can be made, have been made, and have been reported both on the MuseScore forum, as here, and on the MuseHub forum. They give me cause for concern.
Many of them are from sources that I consider reliable, both from the wording used and from what they report. Some reports I have confirmed on my own machine. Below I will summarize a few. My own background is professional software engineer, with good knowledge especially on Linux and MacOS.
I would welcome any contribution on all systems, but especially on Windows, either to support or to refute my concerns.
Now to the issue itself. Since the problem lies in the technique, I will necessarily have to make a few technical observations. I will make them as accessible as possible, without oversimplifying.
First the notion of "root access" that comes up frequently in the reports. "Root" is the term used in Linux and MacOS for the "superuser", that is roughly the same as the system administrator: the person who can install applications, access and modify each and every file or folder from any user, and indeed modify most (on MacOS) or all (on LInux) of the critical system files. If the superuser has bad intentions, he can make the machine crash, expose all information on it to outside parties, or have it take part in mass attacks on critical services. Or report on your movements, if installed on your laptop, or anything else that a computer can do.
If a process (program) is "owned by root", it means that it can do everything the superuser can. The deepest layer of the OS consists of processes owned by root. That is necessary to perform critical tasks. These programs are part of the OS and are provided by Apple or Microsoft, or come with your favorite Linux distribution. They are protected by layers of security, and can never be touched (modified) by ordinary users or by programs ran by them. Only an administrator or another root owned process can access them. An ordinary user should have no need for them. They will run on his behalf when necessary, without him either knowing it or controlling them. That is to protect the integrity of the system from harm, committed either unknowingly or on purpose..
Now it has been reported that MuseHub installs a root owned process. I have confirmed that this is the case on my Mac. To see it running, enter (in a console window):
$ ps aux | grep -iE 'muse|hub'This gives:
root 688 0,0 0,1 34338016 25116 ?? Ss 1:54 0:00.36 /Library/PrivilegedHelperTools/com.muse.museserviceThis confirms that it runs with root privileges. It also can be observed that it is running all the time, even when MuseHub has been closed by the user.
It is considered bad practice, and a security risk, to have programs provided by third parties running as root. Three reasons are:
Why does MuseHub thinks it needs such powerful access? I do not know. Its apparent function are:
The only reason it would need root access is the silent install, since that requires writing to the system wide application folder, for which you need root access.
The alternative, which virtually all other programs use, is to notify the user of new versions and let him do the installation himself. A very small price to pay for avoiding giving indiscriminate root access to a third party. (And in fact my preference, since I might decide I do not want a specific update.)
This is the core of the argument. I may very well not have addressed all your questions, in which case I hope you will come back with them. As said, any outcome of the discussion based on facts is welcome, and should it be determined that there is no cause for concern after all I will be a happy person. If only because that would give me safe access to the beautiful MuseSounds libraries.
In reply to @bobjp: Thank you for asking… by jimfoster
@jimfoster:
It is interesting to me that you posted this in the middle of a thread that has nothing to do with the Hub. Forum protocol suggests that this type of post should be a separate topic. This alone makes your post suspect. Not because I doubt the veracity of the content. Or that you truly believe it. The Hub Service is running on my Windows computer even after I close it. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that many other services are running that have root access, also. It's possible that someone with malicious intent could hack into any of them at anytime. It's also possible that might never happen. Once the Hub has been used to download the sounds, it can be uninstalled. At least on Windows. And then re-installed later. If you really want more people to join in, start a new topic.
In reply to @bobjp: Thank you for asking… by jimfoster
@jimfoster
Whilst your info should be in its own thread, it is indeed concerning that a 3rd party piece of software requires such a high access level. In mitigation, the devs have no history of malpractice so I doubt that there is any malicious code included. We just have to hope that it poses no security risk from hackers.
In reply to @jimfoster Whilst your info… by yonah_ag
see https://musescore.org/en/node/339231
The musehub.zendesk.com entry for the problem has vanished, so it seems
This makes it even more suspicious.
In reply to see https://musescore.org/en… by graffesmusic
I can confirm this. It was I who submitted the entry, and it used to be 100% working.
In reply to Indeed. It was I who… by user2442
I just checked on the forum, and it is indeed no longer there.
In reply to Indeed. It was I who… by user2442
What did you post there and what does "100% working" mean?
In reply to What did you post there and… by bobjp
I summarized the arguments made on this forum why MuseHub should be considered dangerous. I politely asked them to look into it and take action. I posted a link to the entry on this, the MuseScore forum (https://musescore.org/en/node/339231).
With "100 % working" I just meant that this link, https://musehub.zendesk.com/hc/en-gb/community/posts/8450771193629, was working at the time I posted it.
UPDATE: As of today, January 4, the entry has been reinstated.
In reply to Following a suggestion from… by user2442
I see that port is also used by some common games.
In reply to I see that port is also used… by bobjp
Yes, and using that port is in itself not a problem. But.having it open in a root owned process is.
In reply to Yes, and using that port is… by user2442
I haven't as yet been able to see if the Hub runs with root access on Windows. I quit the Hub so it doesn't show in my taskbar any more. The exe. service is running on port 7364. But, as I already said, there are other services for closed applications running on various ports above the 1025 mark.
So far I can not verify that the Hub is an actual problem. You say there is potential danger. I can't really verify or deny it. So I can only leave it alone, because I can't see the need for any action on anyone's part. A poor argument would be that just going on the internet is dangerous. I wouldn't accept that argument. So what are we to do?
In reply to I haven't as yet been able… by bobjp
I'd say we need solid, undisputable facts more than anything. There is a lot of disagreement at the moment, fueled by incomplete information, and a factual investigation should help.
I propose to open a new topic with title "MuseHub -- what does it do and can it really cause harm? The facts." or something like that. I think the combined knowledge of forum users should give us really fast solid ground to stand on and make us know if there really is a problem, if so on what platforms, and what, perhaps, could be done about it. (And no, the answer cannot be "give up on internet"...)
Would you agree?
In reply to I'd say we need solid facts… by jimfoster
Makes sense. Presumably the developers of MuseHub could easily clarify the situation.
In reply to Makes sense. Presumably the… by yonah_ag
And as explained previously, the place to contact the Muse Hub developers is via their Zendesk site. Feel free to start a new thread here on this community-oriented site to reach a consensus before reaching out to the developers, but when you are ready to contact them, you will need to do so through their Zendesk site.
In reply to And as explained previously,… by Marc Sabatella
I created a new topic "MuseHub - What does it do and can it really cause harm? In search of facts." (https://musescore.org/en/node/341517).
In reply to And as explained previously,… by Marc Sabatella
@Marc Sabatella: Coming back to this point: I did indeed make a posting to their forum, see https://musehub.zendesk.com/hc/en-gb/community/posts/8450771193629-Muse….
Some discussion followed, with others chiming in. In https://musescore.org/en/node/344865 you can read that the developers have fallen silent after well-argued concerns had been posted. This leaves the matter in limbo and unresolved. Will you be able to help?
In reply to Coming back to this point: I… by user2442
Sorry, I have no connection whatsoever to anything having to do with Muse Hub. I do see a comment from one of the developers that they are actively working on addressing the concerns raised. So my best advice is to simply be patient. Meanwhile, the hub does work fine as is.
In reply to @jimfoster Whilst your info… by yonah_ag
@bobjp, @yonah_ag,
In retrospect it would have been better to move the explanation to a separate topic and put a link here. My bad.
However, it was an answer to "please provide proof" from bobjp and as such I do not see what there is "suspect" about it, as he says.
My original post was a simple warning as a reaction to an earlier post in this topic where, undoubtedly with the best intentions, the use of MuseHub was presented as a thing of course, without any warning about the possible dangers that come with it. Dangers that have been signalled many times in other topics on this forum.
I think such a warning is not out of place. Many users, especially of this topic, might not be aware of the problem, and as such I think there is nothing wrong with putting in a warning.
If bobjp would be interested to know what could be true of "many other services are running that have root access" on his machine, he just has to ask and I will argue that that is very likely not true in the sense he seems to mean.
And also that even completely uninstalling MuseHub after use might not take away the risk. In a separate topic this time.
In reply to @bobjp, @yonah_ag, In… by jimfoster
I have just checked my Windows 10 setup to see which services are running with Local System access. The only such services running, which are NOT part of the Windows installation, are from my antivirus software.
There are 3 Google services with Local System access but these are not running, even with Chrome Web browser open; and there is a Bonjour service which I disabled some years ago so this is not running.
So it does seem odd that MuseHub should need system wide access.
In reply to FWIW, I do understand and… by Marc Sabatella
I don't see why there should be a "difficult technical problem" (https://musescore.org/en/node/338084#comment-1160613). If they had made a normal midi interface for MuseSounds these problems would never have occurred. As it is, they have forced MuseScore to build an awful proprietary interface to their lib. With all the problems we are now facing.
Why did they, I wonder? To create a lock-in situation for anyone wishing to use MuseSounds? Certainly looks that way. Doesn't speak well for their intentions, and certainly not in the spirit of what's best for the community.
In reply to I don't see why there should… by johnweigand
If you have a solution in mind, I'm sure the development team would welcome your PR that solves it!
But for the record, no, using a "normal interface" for Msue Sounds would not have changed anything about this. The only thing it would have accomplished is rendering Muse Sounds much less realistic. The reason MIDI wasn't chosen is that it is far too limiting, which is why soundfonts can never sound as as good as Muse Sounds and why VST's can come close only through the use of hacks like keyswitches but even then fall short of the capabilities of Muse Sounds.
The interface is not intended to create a lock, BTW - it's going to be published soon as open source, so anyone can use the same interface.
In reply to There is a reason why… by Jacek Gajek
@ Jacek Gajek You said: "Also on Windows you don't have a visual feedback because all instances of app are hidden under the same icon so you don't really know which scores are currently open."
Right now I have 12 full orchestra , multi-page scores open in MS4. If I scroll over the icon in my taskbar, I see a preview of all 12, including titles. If I scroll over the previews, I see the first page of each score full screen.
I won't even go into how odd it is to use scores (rather than some kind of copy) to look at for most any reason other than editing.
True, MS4 takes longer to load than MS3. That's because it does more. But it sounds to me like you don't need MS4. Great. No problem.
In reply to @ Jacek Gajek You said: … by bobjp
How much RAM is MS4 needing for all those scores to be open at the same time?
(I know what you mean about viewing scores: much better not in a full blown score editor.)
In reply to How much RAM is MS4 needing… by yonah_ag
I would never do that in any real world situation. I just did it to see what would happen. And I only did it with 12 scores because that is my full MS4 folder. It maxed my CPU, but I still had ram. This computer is about 8 years old, and doesn't meet MS4 specs. Dual core i5. 8GB ram. 1TB SSD. Oh, and an old Diamond Sound Tube as a usb audio interface. Cost about $20 back in the day. Playback of loud full orchestra scores is fine.
In reply to I would never do that in any… by bobjp
Impressive, especially as this is such an extreme example. It doesn't look like the multi instances of MS4 are over taxing so I would've thought that there are higher priority issues to address than working on a single instance multi tabbed interface.
In reply to Impressive, especially as… by yonah_ag
The thing is, only one instance is normally active at a time, so in principle it can be more efficient than when all scores and all sounds are in a single process. The OS can do what it is designed to do - swap processes in and out as needed.
In reply to The thing is, only one… by Marc Sabatella
I guess so. Swapping should also be much quicker on modern computers compared to the old physical hard disk based swapfile that my PC is running.
In reply to The thing is, only one… by Marc Sabatella
Except that swapping unused application pages is quicker for OS than swapping processes, so no, it is definitively not more efficient to use several processes.
In reply to Except that swapping unused… by frfancha
I never said it was more efficient, or quicker or anything. Just possible. I might try it on my one computer that has a 4 core CPU, 16 GM of ram. But for the most part I'm not sure it means that much to me.
In reply to Except that swapping unused… by frfancha
I disagree - paging requires a fair of guesswork, and in a single-instance app, there is no way for an OS to know which page sare associated with the current score and which are associated with other scores. So it will not be able to make optimum choices compared to swapping processes - which in any well-written OS is very efficient.
I'm not saying there would necessarily be a noticeable difference, but I am saying, the mere fact that sounds are loaded into multiple process is not going to be a problem in practice, because any loss in swapping processes is likely to be more than offset in being able to keep the right pages in memory. Only if you spend more time switching tabs than actually working on a score would it be the other way around.
In reply to Except that swapping unused… by frfancha
Re: frfancha • Dec 31, 2022 - 20:49
"so no, it is definitively not more efficient to use several processes"
I think that bobjp's test shows that the efficiency, or otherwise, of multiple processes is not a performance problem in the real world, provided that the CPU is not constantly flat out. It would be interesting to know how many scores needed to be closed to bring his CPU back to 50% or less, especially as his test was on a relatively low spec PC.
In reply to How much RAM is MS4 needing… by yonah_ag
Tested on a dual Xeon E5-1620 @3.60GHz with 16GB RAM, OS: Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 4.0.0-223472159, revision: 5485621
The basic program takes about 300MB RAM and each score (even if it is empty) about 200 to 300 MB. No problem if you have enough RAM but this is way more than MS3 used and, for some people, will lead to swap file usage which will really slow things down.
Fortunately, you can buy some seriously powerful ex-corporate PCs on eBay (I am replacing my current system which is 10 years old with a 4 year old machine because the old one has a physical problem with the ethernet circuitry). Or, depending upon your machine, you might see a benefit from adding some RAM (and that might help in other programs, too).
In reply to Tested on a dual Xeon E5… by underquark
@underquark
Your information is very useful and confirms that, whilst my old PC will struggle with MS4, I should have no trouble with multiple instances on any half decent new laptop, so I don't see it as being a significant issue.
This is terrible. Tabs are the way to go, and it's the expected behavior for virtually all software; even my TeX editor works with tabs and doesn't put up a fuss. I understand that it's a one step forward kind of deal, but (edited) nope, Stage Manager doesn't work; the OS treats the application as separate instances, so I am sending the various windows to the background entirely.
In reply to This is terrible. Tabs are… by luntastonemason
Again, Word doesn't use tabs. Nor does Audacity. Nor Sibelius. To name a few,
In reply to Again, Word doesn't use tabs… by bobjp
Word indeed doesn't use tabs, but it offers "View side by side" and "Switch Windows"
In reply to Word indeed doesn't use tabs… by frfancha
MS4 doesn't need a switch windows button. Going to the taskbar is the same thing.
In reply to MS4 doesn't need a switch… by bobjp
No it isn't.
Switch windows shows you Word instances only, not everything.
And it is a list of names, taking less space on screen than the task bar hover, so you can immediately spot the correct one even when many of them the are opened.
And again you get options to arrange these Word windows on screen.
Bottom line, Word doesn't use tabs, but offers all the same features tabs would.
In reply to No it isn't. Switch windows… by frfancha
And going to the taskbar icon only shows you MS instances. But I get that it could be a hassle for people how have many things in the taskbar. I have file explorer and control panel only. Plus whatever software I am using at the time.
In reply to Again, Word doesn't use tabs… by bobjp
But Pages does. And going from tabs to away from tabs is not how this should behave. I’m particularly sensitive because of the way running multiple instances of the program works on macOS. It’s poorly conceived.
It’d be one thing if the default was a new window, but it’s just not even possible to change this. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
In reply to But Pages does. And going… by luntastonemason
I'm not sure why something that is not what you are used to is poorly conceived. You are free to dislike it. But that doesn't make it bad. There are plenty of things that I don't like about v3 and v4. That doesn't make them stupid or poorly conceived.
In reply to I'm not sure why something… by bobjp
Because you’re not listening and neither were the developers. They still aren’t. You are reflexively defending this all while pointing to things that never had tabs.
I’m also entitled to my opinion.
It is, indeed, bad, as EVERYONE complaining has been pointing out. This simply doesn’t work as expected, and while I appreciate some of the improvements, the software needs to work as expected, and the changes shouldn’t massively disrupt how users work. That is indeed a poor conception, and you’re not obligated to respond so if you don’t want to listen, so I think I’m done here.
In reply to Because you’re not listening… by luntastonemason
I'm not defending anything. Just making observations. I hear (as in listening) all kinds of statements about the lack of tabs being bad. I never used tabs in MS3, so it makes no difference to me. But I would never make that decision for you. Bad for the way you work? Sure. Bad in general? Not so sure. You think the developers don't know how important tabs are? There may well be perfectly good reasons why there are no tabs. They may well come back. We may never see them again. Who knows.
"the software needs to work as expected". So it doesn't work as you expect it to work. That makes it a bad program. Yes I know lots of people use tabs. I am especially impressed with the organist that has 130 tabs open at once. But he doesn't really need MS4 for that.
Everyone uses the program differently. For me there are many,many things far more important that, in my opinion that need to be fixed first. But I forgot. You've decided we're done.
In reply to I'm not defending anything… by bobjp
Other things that Word does well despite being multi-window: change your ribbon in any of the Word window (+/- customize your MuseScore palettes), all other Windows immediately have your new ribbon. Or change an option, it is applied to all opened windows at once as well.
I also want to use multiple tabs. I often create a few different versions of a composition/arrangement at the same time so that I can see all my options and then decide which one I like best. I frequently switch between tabs. Switching to a whole new window is a huge pain. Please change this!
In reply to I also want to use multiple… by luvmyorange
Hmmm. In Windows I just mouse over the MS4 icon in the taskbar and select the instance I want. Maybe a second longer.
In reply to Hmmm. In Windows I just… by bobjp
Nevertheless this is a massive disruption to the workflow which shouldn’t have ever been introduced and should be fixed to allow for both options ASAP.
And in its current iteration, it’s terrible for macOS users.
I agree.
It is much more convenient to use tabbed interface.
And where is the save button?? Why do I need 2 click to save?
In reply to I agree. It is much more… by Oded Violin
As per Martin Keary (AKA Tantacrul) the Save Button "is a thing of the 90s" and therefor got removed...
(Don't dare to critisize that or any other decision or he'll harrass you until the end of time for "defending rubbish ideas", no joke, believe me, I know what I'm talking about here)
Shortcut Ctrl+S to the rescue
In reply to As per Martin Keary (AKA… by Jojo-Schmitz
This is so stupid. And patronizing.
My hand is on the mouse.
I need to leave the mouse to press contrl+s.
Why not let me choose by myself?
Why not add an option in the preferences or view menu to hide or show the save button?
In reply to This is so stupid. And… by Oded Violin
You've been warned ;-)
In reply to This is so stupid. And… by Oded Violin
You have two hands? One for the mouse, one for the keyboard shortcut?
In reply to You have two hands? One for… by RobFog
That's the patronizing I'm talking about.
Yes, I do have two hands.
And I might choose other ways to use them than what you think.
In reply to That's the patronizing I'm… by Oded Violin
Patronising? I just responded to your claim about the hand having to leave the mouse.
In reply to Patronising? I just… by RobFog
Well, my workflow is left hand on NumPad for the duration, right hand on mouse to place the notes
In reply to Patronising? I just… by RobFog
Not you. Musescore.
In reply to This is so stupid. And… by Oded Violin
@Oded Violin
It's not stupid but I totally agree with all your other points, especially on adding an option. Personally, I'm a Ctrl-S type but I know that a lot of people prefer to have a save button in their apps.
I wonder what MS would do in the "not-going-to-happen" iPad version, where you can't press Ctrl-S. "Sorry, you can't save, it's too '90s!" ;-)
In reply to As per Martin Keary (AKA… by Jojo-Schmitz
If they want to remove the save button, then they should do auto-save, like in google drive...
Some people are talking here about tabs or not, new windows, etc.
It would be fine if it weren't tabs, but different windows in the same instance of the application. I don't have a problem with different windows like you get in Word, Pages, Numbers, etc. as opposed to tabs, but the problem as I see it is that there are standard macOS shortcuts to switch between open documents in a single application. I can use cmd ~ to live cycle through open documents in a single application easily. I do it all the time. Tap until the document I want is frontmost. No guesswork. Some would argue this is better than tabs because you don't have to use the mouse/trackpad to get to any particular document.
Or, I can use the Window menu or the Dock icon of the application to see which documents I have open and select the one I want. But, MuseScore has no Window menu (I don't know if the Apple HIG says they should. MuseScore 3 doesn't have one, either) so that option is out. When I tried the Dock menu, I got weird results. Sometimes it switched application instances, other times it did that and resized the window for some unknown reason.
Some have suggested using cmd-tab (Application Switcher) to switch between MuseScore instances. The problem with that is while cmd ~ keeps you in the application and lets you live switch, cmd-tab only shows you the application, not which document you might end up at. You can also easily end up in another application if you slip. Cmd~ lets me go, "oh, not that one, maybe the next one" but cmd-tab switches the order of the apps, so if I go to another app and want to go back to MuseScore, the order might have changed or if I've been in several apps the different ones are moved around. Frankly, it's just not how we are used to working on macOS.
I understand that there is a technical reason they made this choice. I am grateful these guys have been developing MuseScore and very happy to use it over the paid apps, each of which I have a reason I don't want to use. But I really hope they find a way to not need to open multiple instances of MuseScore 4 soon, because I really struggle with it and I've found myself preferring to stick with MuseScore 3 for now.
In reply to Some people are talking here… by jmuscara
jmuscara wrote I understand that there is a technical reason they made this choice. I am grateful these guys have been developing MuseScore and very happy to use it over the paid apps, each of which I have a reason I don't want to use. But I really hope they find a way to not need to open multiple instances of MuseScore 4 soon, because I really struggle with it and I've found myself preferring to stick with MuseScore 3 for now.
Ditto to that.
I also agree with jmuscara's second and third paragraphs. Particularly where he wrote: Frankly, it's just not how we are used to working on MacOS. and I can use cmd ~ to live cycle through open documents in a single application easily. I do it all the time. Tap until the document I want is frontmost. No guesswork. Some would argue this is better than tabs...
Command ~ is also my way of cycling through the app's open documents on MacOS. Very clean and easy. And it keeps a stack of the most recently viewed, so it's simple to toggle between the last two viewed or edited documents.
I rarely use the Window menu but it can be very handy too.
MuseScore 4 is massively better in almost every way than 3 except for this separate application, it is a real pain, and also makes loading a score really slow if you already have MuseScore open, instead of near instantly. Hope this can be fixed in the future.
Yep, I work on many scores at the same time for website content so the tabs option was awesome. It's not a huge deal though. I use Logic for example and you have to have separate windows for each project so it's just a case of getting used to it. Sad to see screen shot gone too because I used it tons for cutting up charts to add them to tutorial videos.
By no means complaining though for a free open source app it's incredible, I've used them all and Musescore is the best notation app by far. So easy to use and intuitive. You can't believe the amount of work that's gone into developing MS4, hats off to the developers!
In reply to Yep, I work on many scores… by philwil20121
The image capture functionality will be returning. :-)
In reply to The image capture… by RobFog
Is the roadmap published?
In reply to Is the roadmap published? by graffesmusic
Not yet, but it is in the making
In reply to The image capture… by RobFog
For real! That's awesome I use it a lot. Saves time too because it exports to png. Thanks.
In reply to For real! That's awesome I… by philwil20121
So does the screenshot tool provided by your OS, though. It's actually only for SVG that you really need the old built-in image capture within MuseScore.
There's a perfect German word for this: "verschlimmbessern!"