The ability to change velocity for individual notes in MS4
So the ability to change the velocity for individual notes is something that I didn't even realize how much I loved until I transitioned to MS4. As a matter of fact, it kept me from switching for quite some time. And now that I have transitioned, I miss it dearly. Couple that with how much MS4 improved on the sound fonts and it just seems like a no-brainer. I know the mods are super active on this site and will definitely see this. So if changing the velocity of individual notes is not something thats off the table, can you at least explain why? Or some kind of alternative aside from adjusting the velocity of the dynamics?
Comments
But you can change a note's velocity (or is this something that is only missing in a particular situation?):
![Screenshot_20231218_061535.png]( "Screenshot_20231218_061535.png")
In reply to . [inline:Screenshot… by underquark
Holy cow, thank you man, I was failing to see that it was under the playback tab. Iirc, when MS4 first came out, you could only alter the velocity of the dynamic. But maybe im wrong ab that. Regardless I appreciate you pointing that out
In reply to Holy cow, thank you man, I… by I Go Seppuku Now
It is true that if you click on a series of individual notes in both MS3 and MS4, you can edit their velocities. The problem is that not many of us edit velocities note by note. Rather, we use dynamics marks or hairpins to edit velocities over parts or whole measures, where the notes all increase or decrease together for a dozen or more measures. Frankly, I would hate to have to click on each note in a measure and edit its velocity, particularly since they are not visible to a musician. They are hidden. Dynamics and hairpins on the sheet are obvious and are the way to go and usually have been. Fortunately, the designers of MS 4 have said they will change the code soon to allow both dynamics marks and hairpins to have velocity changes.
In reply to It is true that if you click… by fsgregs
I don't think I've gotten note velocity changes to work in MU4. That includes the new 4.2.
In reply to I don't think I've gotten… by bobjp
related to
feel free to improve handbook
edit: wrong link
In reply to I don't think I've gotten… by bobjp
Everybody confuses “Muse Sounds” with “default MU4 playback”. It is currently Muse Sounds that has this issue, not MU4
In reply to Everybody confuses “Muse… by Asher S.
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In reply to Everybody confuses “Muse… by Asher S.
hamsandwichnow wrote > It is currently Muse Sounds that has this issue, not MU4
Thanks for clarifying. Indeed MS4.2 will play velocities with sound libraries other than Muse Sounds. I guess it's just Muse Sounds that's not yet velocity ready.
Confusion on this point is understandable:
The main thrusts of MuseScore 4 were 1) improved engraving and 2) enhanced playback, so it's not surprising if people mainly explore the new Muse Sounds libraries.
Anyone exclusively using Muse Sounds libraries may erroneously conclude that MuseScore 4 doesn't support note velocity. Initially I came to that conclusion myself ... and likely have made forum posts expressing that mistaken notion, for which I apologize.
scorster
In reply to hamsandwichnow wrote > It is… by scorster
No need to apologize. Midi out - velocity - vsti etc. is really not functional as it should be.
It would be nice if the devoloppers provide some documentation what works and what not.
In reply to No need to apologize. Midi… by Johan-v
If they did, then they might realize these things faster.
In reply to hamsandwichnow wrote > It is… by scorster
I just happened to not use Muse Sounds at all for a few months…
In reply to And I<\i> by Asher S.
Having used MS3.6 for over a year now, I find it has very few flaws. I have not yet discovered what MS4 has over MS3, unless one considers MuseSounds. The interface is a bit worse in MS4, the F10 mixer is a bit screwed up when displayed, several instruments still do not have solo versions, and there are several other bugs that need fixing. I do like the ability to set reverb per instrument, but if I cannot use the improved MuseSounds because it does not yet allow velocity edits for hairpins and dynamics, and I have to load a soundfont I already have in MS3.6, I cannot see forcing myself to switch to MS4.
In reply to Having used MS3.6 for over a… by fsgregs
We all have to use the software that works the best for each of us. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
I compose mostly for small orchestra. For playback only. You would think that I would want all the control I can get. You would think that all the things that don't work or sound quite right would turn me away from MU4. Like they have many others. I've never used velocity controls in any software I've used. So you guys might ask how I can possibly write anything any good. Music is, after all, about expressiveness. But even with all their shortcomings, I much prefer Muse sounds. I write for what I have to work with. That is part of the challenge of composing. I would not write the same way for a brass group that I would write for a full orchestra, or a rock band. I would have to write differently in MU3. So I view the problems with Muse sounds to be another difference to work with. I think it makes me a better composer. If I only had an spinet piano, I wouldn't expect what I wrote would sound the same on a full grand piano. Or a harpsichord. Or pipe organ. So when I open in MU4, something that I wrote in MU3, I often have to make several changes to it so that is sounds good. Different orchestras sound different playing the same music.
In reply to We all have to use the… by bobjp
Thanks Bob. I understand. To each his own! I will slowly incorporate MS4.2 into my efforts, once a few more fixes are added (particularly dynamics edits for hairpins and dynamics marks).
In reply to Thanks Bob. I understand… by fsgregs
Don't get me wrong. I understand wanting to be able to edit dynamics. There have been times when I thought it might be nice. But then, rather than insist on doing things my way, I let the music do it the way it wants. I know that sounds odd. I don't wait for inspiration before I write. If I did, I wouldn't write anything. I sit at my computer and input a few notes. Then I get out of the way.
As a result, I have no interest in transcription or arranging.
In reply to Don't get me wrong. I… by bobjp
W A R N I N G : Anything above this post is from 2023. Anything below this post is from 2025. Apparently the year 2024 is missing. Authorities have been dispatched to deal with the situation.
In reply to W A R N I N G : Anything… by FBXOPWKDOIR2
Sure there have been any posts to this thread in 2024?
In reply to . [inline:Screenshot… by underquark
It would be great if Muse sounds got this fixed
In reply to This doesn't work for me by xNoTz
Maybe velocities will be working with Muse Sounds early in MuseScore 5's timeline.
https://musescore.org/en/node/373626
In reply to This doesn't work for me by xNoTz
Failing to allow me to edit hairpin and dynamic volumes in MS 4 is the only real reason I am not using it. When you listen to any symphony or even solo song, the volume of a measure or measures will frequently change, either swelling or softening, then changing again a few notes or measures later. The directions the composer uses to the musicians to do that, has always been hairpins (< or >) or dynamics (ppp, pp, p, mp, etc.). That is why they are part of music. Many times, the dynamics volumes change only a bit (+-5 or 6), rather than 14-16 (i.e. the change between pp at 33, and 49 at p). Although the coders of MS 4 promised to allow minor or major volume edits in both hairpins and dynamics, they have not yet done so. Until they do, I simply cannot use MS 4, which is a shame, since I adapt a LOT of songs to MuseScore and would love to employ the extra powers of MS 4.
Hopefully, some day!!!
In reply to Failing to allow me to edit… by fsgregs
@fsgregs.
Go to my page and listen to the Compassion piece.
This is MU4 with Muse sounds. No note velocity. No defined hairpin or dynamics. Just what you see and hear.
Might those things make it better? Maybe. Maybe not.
The point is that nothing that MU3 has to offer comes anywhere near close to this. I tried. I wrote this in Sibelius years ago. Then put it in 3.6.2 later. MU3 sounds just don't cut it. It's not just about velocity. Or dynamics.
I've said it many times. Muse sounds are far from perfect. No font is. But they are the reason I use MU4 regardless of what other shortcomings there may be.
In reply to @fsgregs. Go to my page and… by bobjp
Bob: Compassion is awesome ... such a great job of composition. I love the reverb built into each instrument in the score, and I have to admit that the swells and fades in volume using hairpins and dynamics do not need much adjustment. I can get used to MuseSounds I guess. It would be very useful to adjust the volume of dynamics but I can see that the definitions already present can be used with some getting used to. Maybe I will give MS 4 a try soon.
In reply to Bob: Compassion is awesome … by fsgregs
And another problem is that composition and transcription are two different things. If I write something that I can't get to sound right, I just write something different. You don't always have that luxury with transcription. I write for playback only. So I might write some odd looking notation to get a certain effect. You can't really do that.
In reply to And another problem is that… by bobjp
Bob or Andrew or both: Assuming there is a text file somewhere in MS 4's folder that defines each prescribed dynamic e.g. (pp=33, p = 49, etc.), could I copy an existing dynamic in that file and paste it with a custom dynamic with a changed volume (say ppc= 40)? That way, I can permanently load it when I launch MS 4 and use it in my adaptations.
In reply to Bob or Andrew or both: … by fsgregs
If there is such a file then you could simply edit it, (after making a backup of course). Probably worth starting a new post specifically about this.
I don't know if you can change the prescribed dynamic velocity via a plugin; it depends on what the plugin api supports. I have one that imports MS3 note velocities into MS4 so changing dynamics velocities may also be possible.
In reply to If there is such a file then… by yonah_ag
Andrew: My thinking exactly. If the coders of MS4 do not want to allow changes to dynamics yet, maybe a plugin can do it. Actually, I don't need any changes to hairpins. All that might be needed is a plugin that permits a custom dynamic to be created in MS4. So, if desired, I launch the plugin and create a custom dynamic such as "ppc = 40", place it in the dynamics menu and select it to get an intermediate volume of 40, rather than 33 (pp) or 49 (p). I can then write " pp < ppc". It would be nice to save the new dynamic for next time so I don't have to launch the plugin each time I want to use "ppc". Does such a plugin exist or can you write one?
In reply to Andrew: My thinking exactly… by fsgregs
Andrew: I just discovered that apparently, MS 4 will create a custom dynamic at any volume you wish, and save it in a custom dynamics menu. Here is a screenshot from the web:
Is this true?
Frank
In reply to Andrew: I just discovered… by fsgregs
Looks like an AI answer so about 50% chance of being correct. I'll give it a try later today.
In reply to Looks like an AI answer so… by yonah_ag
Great. I await your reply. If it works, then I will download and begin using MS4.
Thanks
Frank
In reply to Great. I await your reply. … by fsgregs
Well I can't get it to work as suggested.
I tried
1) The method that you posted above using a stave text with velocity properties:
The playback settings are greyed out for these texts on both Basic Sounds and a VST3 stave:
2) Adding a standard dynamics symbol from the Dyamics palette and customising the velocity. I couldn't find any settting to do so.
I don't have MuseSounds installed so I can't say if the option might be available with it.
Maybe bobjp could do this test for you.
In reply to Well I can't get it to work… by yonah_ag
Well ... "F...."k. Why did they take it out? What a bummer!!!!! That returns us to a possible plugin. Is one possible with MuseSounds/MS 4?
In reply to Well ... "F...."k. Why did… by fsgregs
Unknown. Does MS4 associate a velocity with a dynamic behind the scenes? i.e. what do dynamics look like in the mscx file?
In reply to Unknown. Does MS4 associate… by yonah_ag
Don't know because I have not installed MS 4 on my computer yet. If I do so, all my .mscx files become associated with MS 4 in Windows 10 and I have to laboriously move them to the MS 3.6 folder. Maybe Bob can comment. His "Compassion" mscx file was done in MS4. In that score, it looks like dynamics marks are the same as in MS 3, but ....?
In reply to Don't know because I have… by fsgregs
MS4 mscx format shows that a velocity setting is saved with the dynamic but it doesn't appear to be used during playback. I tried changing this velocity value from 49 to 72 in the mscx then re-loading but it had no effect on playback - so I guess that the p symbol overrides my change.
This is bad news for a plugin but possibly indicates that MS4 could easily implement user-defined velocities per dynamic symbol. The developers must be keeping this velocity value in the score for some reason so maybe there are plans for it.
In reply to MS4 mscx format shows that a… by yonah_ag
OK, I am sadly now very confused. There have been lots of posts about this now. In fact, I think I started the post long ago. People have rebooted, used older versions, etc. and I am too confused to follow. Specifically:
Please be patient but ...
In reply to OK, I am sadly now very… by fsgregs
In reply to No No No by yonah_ag
So, all hope is lost, since the coders of MS 4 clearly are not planning to add custom dynamics to the program? Why no chance of a plugin ..., or an edit to the code to add 2 or 3 more dynamics marks to the base program? Surely, if the code allows the "pp" variable to = 49, we can add an additional line to set "ppc" = 40. No?
In reply to So, all hope is lost, since… by fsgregs
I would say that they may be planning to add custom dynamics. As I pointed out above, the dynamic marking in a MS4 mscx files already has an associated velocity.
Maybe someone who knows the C++ codebase for MS4 can comment about custom dynamics in one of the setup files. I guess that almost anything is possible but someone needs to code it. Maybe there are technical reasons as to why it has not been done.
So possibly (1) is a "maybe".
In reply to So, all hope is lost, since… by fsgregs
A plugin could change the velocity in the mscx file associated with a dynamic marking but there's no point since this is ignored or overwritten when the mscx file is reloaded into MS4. Maybe one for the future.
In reply to A plugin could change the… by yonah_ag
Andrew: I was not thinking of changing a dynamic to something new, rather; adding another custom dynamic to the program. So, for example, if the main code sets the variables "ppp = 16", "pp=33", "p=49" "etc". and the program adds these to a palette & executes them at specific volumes, maybe we could add new lines in the correct place that simply add, "ppc = 40", "pc = 55", "mpc=70" etc. I don't see why the program would not respond to them just as well as the 1st example and add a few more dynamics settings that would be executed. Would this not be correct?
In reply to Andrew: I was not thinking… by fsgregs
I know that's what you mean.
You have reached the end of my limited MS4 knowledge on this subject and really need someone with more technical knowledge to shed further light on the matter.
In reply to Andrew: I was not thinking… by fsgregs
A MS4 plugin can set individual note velocity, (as my import velocity plugin does), so you could probably combine this with detection of dynamics symbols to apply note velocities en masse according to a set of parameters.
In reply to A MS4 plugin can set… by yonah_ag
Andrew: Oh boy, now you have gotten into my sad-sack inability to write code. I've heard of C++ but never learned it and have no idea how to combine your note plugin with a new one I write, trying to set note velocities en mass and getting an entire custom dynamics palette installed in MS 4. Bob has urged me to listen to his scores and try to do without custom dynamics, using only the hairpins and the standard menu of dynamics that come with MS 4. Given that there does not seem to be any other choice, I guess I have no choice but to do so. Alternatively, I can just continue using MS 3.61. I'll experiment with MS 4.5.2 for a few days and uninstall it if I can't get it to work to the control I want.
Thank you and Bob so much for trying to figure this out with me.
In reply to Andrew: Oh boy, now you… by fsgregs
Frank, Actually I was suggesting that you go ahead and open that score in 3.6.2. Use whatever tools you want to try an make it sound better. If you can, good for you. But to me the sound of music is more than any dynamic, more than note length, more than articulation. So many of these things that you have come to rely on are not the sound of music. The trumpet in MU3 is probably one of the worst sounds I have ever heard. But when I used MU3 I had to use it because I write for orchestra. All MU3 sounds lack depth, personality, and musicality.
All you see in my score is the same instructions I would give to real players. That has always been the magic of notation software for me. I write dynamics and hairpins and the like and the software gives it its best shot. Much like real players might. They don't always get it right either. Sibelius has all the setting adjustments and more. Much more. But I never really needed them for what I write. One of the first things I wrote when I got Sibelius so many years ago started out with Contrabasses playing the melody. I was blown away because I could hear and almost feel, the sound the bow makes as it is drawn across the strings. Not just the pitch. This, to me is part of the actual sound of music. I don't want to control the music. I want to set it free.
In reply to Frank, Actually I was… by bobjp
Bob: You and I apparently treat music alike. I try also to set music free and let it soar. I am a serious perfectionist when it comes to adapting music to Musescore. I have not tried Sibelius because I don't want to learn a whole new software program, but it sounds like it does what you need. I'm surprised you now use MS 4.5.
Anyway, today I will install MS 4.5 and see if I can get used to its dynamics marks being wider than I would like. Maybe actual orchestras make do with those same volumes, and I am just being too picky. We will see. If it does not do what I need in playback, I will uninstall it and return to using MS 3.6.
Thanks for the posting.
Frank
In reply to Bob: You and I apparently… by fsgregs
Frank, Remember that my score on .com is done with Muse sounds from the HUB. The sounds that come with MU4 are called Basic sounds. They are the same as the sounds in MU3. Don't expect to fire up MU4 and just go for it. MU4 is very different in many ways.
I have learned that no matter how I set up a score, play back of a recording can sound very different on different equipment.
I have a very old copy of Sibelius. I started using MuseScore because I was afraid that it would not work on newer versions of Windows. So far, no problem. Like you, I am picky. Just in a different way. The UI of Sibelius is much better. There is far more control over all aspects of notes. Right down to universal note lengths. As well as dynamic control. The sounds are far better than MU3. And in most respects, better than MU4. They are consistent and smooth. Muse sounds are not, always. But that's the thing. Is that all there is?
I have a piece that I started in Sibelius years ago. I worked on it through version 8. Then I started working on it in MU3. This piece starts out very calm and quiet. It wanders through a few minutes without much direction. Then it literally explodes. Over and over. Bigger and bigger. Then it ends,. MU3 never came close to the same power that Sibelius did. I stopped working on it. Then MU4 came along. Muse sounds tend to be inconsistent, unruly. This is a general complaint about them. Very true. So, of course I loaded this score into MU4. And Muse sounds delivered the power and punch that I wanted. I'm up to version 34. So much fun.
In reply to Frank, Remember that my… by bobjp
@Frank:
And I think that this goes to the heart of the issue. 'Compassion' sounds wonderful with 'out of the box' MS4 features and no velocity editing. Maybe you should try MS4 with MuseSounds before deciding that custom dynamics are an absolute necessity.
In reply to Andrew: I just discovered… by fsgregs
Can confirm it doesn’t work
In reply to Bob: Compassion is awesome … by fsgregs
Maybe it's worth 'biting the bullet' and getting stuck into MS4. MuseSounds are so far ahead of MS3's SF2 rendering, (almost like colour TV vs. black and white), that maybe a little wait for fine adjustment of hairpins etc. could be tolerated, especially as bobjp has demonstrated how good MuseSounds can be.
Another option, (at least for Windows setups), is to use VST3 plugins. You do need to check MS4 compatibility but I have an excellent one for classical guitar and note velocity is supported, so this may be the case for other VSTs.
In reply to Maybe it's worth 'biting the… by yonah_ag
Andrew: I have just one VST but use at least 25 .sf2 soundfonts, some with 30 or more instruments each. I have heard very good things about VST's but it would greatly help me to download some "sets" of VST's that contain a collection of instruments. Do you know of any? If so, what website can i find them on?
Thanks in advance
Frank
In reply to Andrew: I have just one VST… by fsgregs
I only score for classical guitar and use Pianoteq's VST.
https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq_overview
There is a free VST from The BBC Symphony Orchestra but I have never tried it.
https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbc-symphony-orchestra-discover
In reply to Andrew: I have just one VST… by fsgregs
Maybe you could use a mix of VST and Basic Sounds, (including your sf2 soundfonts), in MS4 but I was really thinking that bobjp's MuseSounds playback might show that MuseSounds could work for you too.
In reply to Maybe you could use a mix of… by yonah_ag
The custom dynamic only works in early versions of MU4.
I have tried BBC, Spitfire, and one other Major vst that I can't recall the name of. My personal opinion is that they are a bit tricky to use and don't really sound that good. Again, that is my take. Someone else may disagree. We each have our own idea of good sound and what we need.
In reply to The custom dynamic only… by bobjp
I wonder why they took it out.
I've seen similar reports from VST users: it's not always plain sailing getting them to work. Fortunately there was a trial version of the VST that I use so I knew that it played nicely with MS4 and sounded great.
In reply to Maybe you could use a mix of… by yonah_ag
Andrew: I have downloaded the BBC's 34 instrument VST library into MS 4.5. Sadly, it does not work in MS 3.6 or 3.7. I suspect that it in combination with MuseSounds and a few SF2 fonts will be all I need to select very good instrument sounds. Thanks for the link.
In reply to Andrew: I have downloaded… by fsgregs
😮
I thought that the idea was to try VST with MS4.
VST with MS3 is different but can work. Are you on Windows?
Frank.
I have an old computer with both MU3 and MU4 installed. If I have the MU3 scores folder open and I click on a score, it will try to open in MU4. If I indeed open it in MU4, it then becomes a MU4 file. But if I open MU3, I can open a file from the scores folder no problem.
I'm trying to get MU3 to make an mp3 of the score that made me change to MU4. The file plays properly, but an mp3 of it doesn't include all the instruments. Nothing is muted. The goal is to show the differences between the two programs playing the same file.
In reply to Frank. I have an old… by bobjp
Was an instrument set to solo for the mp3 export? (I'm guessing not but, just in case).
In reply to Was an instrument set to… by yonah_ag
I did a factory reset and then everything worked.
In reply to Frank. I have an old… by bobjp
Frank, Attached is the score from my piece on .com. It is set up to open in MU3. If you are up for it, open it and take a listen. This was originally composed in Sibelius. Then worked on in MU3, and finally in MU4. Almost all the dynamic marks are from Sibelius. But no velocity changes. I don't think any amount of note or dynamic mark velocity changes, or PRE, or anything can help MU3 sounds playback anything close to what you hear online.