Add options for "Append to current measure" and "Insert at beginning of score", for measures and frames

• Aug 12, 2017 - 21:51
S5 - Suggestion

Currently, I can either insert measure(s) before current, or append to the end of the score. But composing is not a linear process, and often you already have the next section while still working on the previous one. That becomes a problem if the next section is in different time signature. If you insert a measure before the first of the next section, you have to duplicate the time signature of the original measure (it's moved to the inserted one) and then change it for the inserted measure. A better but still cumbersome way is inserting a measure before the last of the current section, then cutting and pasting the content of the original last measure (and the more staves you have, the less convenient it becomes).

Inserting measure(s) after current is as trivial and as common as inserting before current (I think, it is more common actually!), I'd like to have it as simple as well - an atomic operation with a keyboard shortcut.


Title Insert After Current Measure Add options for "Append to current measure" and "Insert to beginning of score", for measures and frames
Frequency Few
Regression No
Workaround No

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I can't think of a single time when I have needed to insert a measure or frame before the current.
In addition to inserting measures, I might add that I run into this all the time since there is no way to left-align a system, other than using a frame at the end of the line, for which I have to insert a dummy measure, insert a horizontal frame, add a system break to the frame, then delete the dummy measure. This should be an unnecessary workaround for something that ought to be a simple: "Add frame/measure after..." option (or perhaps rather: a checkbox before/after).

I agree that it would be nice to have this feature. But I would take exception to the plied suggestion we don't also need an insert before. I and many people people use that command dozens of times a day.

I'm not sure what you mean about left-aligning systems, though - that happens by default. Probably best to start a forum thread regarding whatever your special use case here is where the default alignment doesn't work, so we can discuss ways of achieving whatever special effect you are trying to achieve.

I'm referring to adding incipits - shorts lines of solo music - between larger blocks, which is quite common in early liturgical music - like this: Screenshot from 2020-11-14 21-18-13.png

As far as I know, left-alignment happens at the end of the score. What I'm after is a way to left-align any system.

Maybe you are using the term left-aligned when you really mean, not right-justified? Left alignment, again, happens automatically - every system is left-aligned with or without a frame. What the frame does is allow a given frame to not be right justified.

Anyhow, assuming that is what you mean, I'm still confused as to how the need to do this occasionally means you would never insert measures normally. nor do I understand why you'd need to delete measures. After writing your score, insert a frame in front of the first bar, then insert the incipit measure in front of the frame, then add the system break. If you forget and add the break to the measure then realize you need to add the frame, you'll have to remove the break on the measure, but nothing about adding a new "append frame after measure" would change this.

So again, I'll in favor of seeing the command added for the sake of completeness, but I am not seeing that it really changes the process here. Add the frame by clicking the incipit and giving the append command, or clicking the first normal measure then giving the insert command, it's the exact same number of clicks either way.

Yes, I'm meaning ragged-right, flush left, not justified - sorry.
I also should say that I've never suggested to remove the ability to insert measures before, only that I've never had any user for that.
About the concrete workflow in this particular case, where one has inserted a break after the solo incipit and then realizes that the line should be made less wide (flush-left): Simply the fact that one has to delete that break, add a frame to the following measure, then apply a new break to that frame, is both an unnecessary extra task, but also conceptually unnecessary complicated: why would I want to add a frame to the next section when I want to adjust the width of the previous system? Is it obvious that a break works the same way on a frame as on the staff itself? It wasn't to me, in any case.
Which is also why what would be most satisfactory would be a way to flush any system left (or - less useful, perhaps: right, or - more useful, perhaps: centre), since that is, conceptually, what one is after. That would also ensure that the same spacing is applied to the single line as to the score as a whole, thus providing consistency.

While we're at it: the menu item is called Add > Frame, but the sub-items are Insert (which inserts a frame before the selected measure) and Append (which disregards the selection entirely and adds a frame at the end of the document. That should be made more consistent and clear, I think.

In reply to by eyolf

Well, or more direct/simple/easy, the setting "left justified" should exist.
No more strange playing with frame would be necessary for that. Frames have their utility, but using them to fight the lack of "left justified" setting is unnecessarily cumbersome.

In reply to by eyolf

I think it is "not right justified" that you are looking for rather than left justified. Everything is left justified, i.e. all the left hand edges of all systems (except the first which is indented) align. You are looking for a means of not aligning the right hand edges of selected systems - as currently happens with final systems that don't exceed the "fill last system" threshold.

In reply to by SteveBlower

The correct terminology is the choice between these four options:
-left align
-right align

So what I'm asking (as anybody using frame to do that) is the option "left align"
Marc has discussed that saying "left align" is incorrect and that one must use "not right justified", so I was trying to use "left justified", but indeed that's not really better.
Again, the correct terminology is a choice between these four options:
-left align
-right align

And the O.P. was perfectly correct by asking the option "Left align"

In reply to by frfancha

I guess it is down to one's semantic preferences, but left align to me says nothing about what happens at the right hand end of the system which is the whole point of the discussion. The behaviour at the right hand end is undefined by the term "left aligned".

Whatever terminology is used the desired behaviour seems clear - the user should be allowed to specify that the stretch for this system should not be adjusted to fill the space between the margins. I suggest that the interface for this could involve adding a user-settable property "do not fill system" to the manual system break.

In reply to by eyolf

One more remark re. the need for "insert after": when inserting measures, the new measure will take all its properties (such as time and key signature) from the selected measure. Thus, if you want to add a measure to one section of the score, e.g. before a change in key and metre, you would then have to add the measure to the following section, then correct the time signature, key signature, etc. of the added measure. Then it is actually easier to insert a measure before the last measure of the previous section and then cut-and-paste the contents of the last measure.

Agreed: although "left align" does not specify everything about a paragraph, it does single out one aspect, in implicit opposition to a normal case (justified).
Screenshot from 2020-11-15 12-48-11.png
But let's not forget the main topic, whatever we call it...

Indeed, it's unrelated to this. I've suggested something along these lines in the forums in the past, it could be a property on a break, for example.